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Session Start: Sat Sep 18 18:04:36 2004
Session Ident: #audiocourses
* Now talking in #audiocourses
* Rico` has joined #audiocourses
* ben_m has joined #audiocourses
<Rico`> hi guys
* Audiocourses changes topic to 'The Second Coming'
<ben_m> hi rico
<Rico`> hows it going
<ben_m> not too bad and yourself?
<Rico`> yeah not bad, my flatmate has just been messing with our network hub, wasn't sure if i was gona get a connection heh
<ben_m> strange - my ADSL connection stopped working this afternoon and only came back about 10 mins ago
<Rico`> i have little faith in him
<Rico`> weird
<ben_m> chris, you there?
<Audiocourses> hi guys.
<Audiocourses> will be 2 mins
<ben_m> ok
<ben_m> rico - you seen the football scores yet?
<Rico`> i had a wee look earlier
<Rico`> arsenal drew i know
<ben_m> yeah, i was really wanting Bolton to give them a shock
<Rico`> yeah i thought they might beat them
<ben_m> u playing tomorrow?
<Rico`> yup we got southampton on sky at 2.00
<ben_m> southampton or clive woodward utd? :)
<Rico`> lol well lets hope they aim over the bar
<ben_m> hehe
<Rico`> i'll be cheering your team on monday aswell
<ben_m> good man
<ben_m> i think we could really give them a beasting
<ben_m> hopefully anyhow!
<Rico`> hopefully
* aik has joined #audiocourses
<ben_m> hi aik
<aik> Hi there
<Rico`> hey aik
<aik> How are you all doing
<Rico`> good thanks
<Rico`> and you?
<aik> Doing well, lacking hours in my day
<Rico`> hey could either of you explain to me how to create a folder on the ftp, i'm lost
<Audiocourses> back
<aik> I managed to do that but I don't know how
<Audiocourses> Rico is it not a right click?
<Rico`> tried to upload my edit last nite but couldnt do it
<ben_m> are you doing it in win or on ftp prog?
<ben_m> right click - new folder in win xp
<Rico`> just gone in through internet explorer, cant see a create folder bit
<ben_m> either right click or file menu, new->folder
<ben_m> are you on XP?
<Rico`> just get create shortcut in right click
<Rico`> yup
<ben_m> that's weird
<ben_m> what version of Internet Explorer do you know
<ben_m> ?
<Rico`> 5.5 i think
<ben_m> try this
<Rico`> o no its 6.0
<ben_m> go to tools
<ben_m> internet options
<ben_m> advanced
<ben_m> box 'enable folder view for ftp' should be turned on
<Rico`> aah yeah it isnt
<ben_m> tick it and then giveit a go
<Rico`> aah thats much better, looks completely different now. Like explorer
<ben_m> yeah, that's it
<Rico`> nice one, cheers
<Audiocourses> ben, could you add that "gem" into the forum
<Audiocourses> http://www.audiocourses.com/postt495.html
<ben_m> no problem
<Audiocourses> Thanks
<Audiocourses> So guys....
<Audiocourses> firstly lets chat about the exam questions before moving on to the practicals and giving some feedback about them
<Audiocourses> sound ok?
<Rico`> yup
<aik> yes
<Audiocourses> So how did you find the week? time comsuming?
<Rico`> I thought they took a lot longer than i had imagined
<aik> well I really enjoyed to read and study but I would love to go deeper
<Audiocourses> a good point aik...
<Audiocourses> the depth never seems to end..
<Rico`> yeah i enjoyed it too
<Audiocourses> I was impressed with what I have seen so far.
<aik> Because it's not only about finding answers to the questions but to understand the context
<Rico`> didnt know anything about classical music
<aik> I do know a lot about classical music
<Rico`> i found them quite difficult but interesting
<Audiocourses> Yes it is an interesting area and I would jump at the chance if you ever get an opportunity to work a clasical job.
<aik> The questions require an opinion or a taste. There is not always an exact right or wrong, am I right?
<Audiocourses> AIK, yes to a certain extent you are correct...
<Audiocourses> I guess sometimes you could all present similar ideas, you know like general room acoustics for example.
<Audiocourses> or the fact that editing a classic peiece will chop the reverb, etc..
<aik> Yes but it is still a question of taste what you prefere
<Audiocourses> yes it is
<aik> or pointing the mics in the right direction
<Audiocourses> certainly with the way it sounds..
<Audiocourses> although if we are working as an "engineer" for somebody, our taste may not be required..
<aik> That's true but it is difficult not to have one
<Audiocourses> we may have to be the "slave" in some situations.. and give the producer what they require.
<aik> You can always come with qualified inputs
<Audiocourses> Of course..
<Audiocourses> Imagine yourself in an environment where you do not like the music..
<Audiocourses> how do we cope.?
<Audiocourses> Can we still work with not liking the music?
<aik> I think it is essential to like the musik to get a good result. It is anyway for me
<Audiocourses> I'm just thinking practically here as say a studio owner..
<Audiocourses> You knowm a band comes along and you do not like the music, do we turn the work down?
<Audiocourses> Tough call
<aik> Depends how bad it is
<Rico`> lol
<Audiocourses> what you think rico?
<aik> After listening for a while you might always find something that keeps you interested
<Audiocourses> aik great point!
<Audiocourses> might just be the texture of the floor tom ;)
<Rico`> i think i would have to like the music to be enthusiastic about it
<Rico`> but there are not many types of music i can't tolerate
<Audiocourses> Ben, they both sound like they should be "Producers" and not engineers lol
<ben_m> hehe
<ben_m> yes, theres a big difference in roles
<aik> I mind end up as an editor, i love editing
<ben_m> as an engineer you will need to work with material that you don't like
<ben_m> the skills you learn from working with other styles of music is invaluavle
<ben_m> invaluable
<ben_m> think about recording classical for instance
<ben_m> you may not like classical
<ben_m> but the skills you learn may come in handy if you're recording a band you like and they want to add a string part
<aik> It is always a challenge to explore new areas
<ben_m> exactly aik
<ben_m> and there are different methods
<ben_m> you wouldn't mic up a dru kit the same way for jazz and rock
<aik> why not?
<ben_m> well, i'm talking rule of thumb here
<aik> I mean it sounds sensible but why
<ben_m> jazz kits are usually mic with only a few mics
<ben_m> not close mics on toms etc
<Rico`> i would think drums arent as prominant in jazz music
<ben_m> i've often recorded jazz kits with 3 mics
<ben_m> also, you may find that in jazz you'll mix the hi-hat louder than you would normally
<ben_m> but doing these things you learn to get a jazz sound
<ben_m> and then you may be recording yor favourite band and they ask you to get a jazz drum sound on a track and you're already there
<ben_m> of course there are times that it is challenging
<ben_m> if you really don't like the music
<ben_m> but you habe to listen to the 'sound' not the music
<ben_m> thats the most important thing
<Audiocourses> very well said
<Audiocourses> that is a "gem" to remember guys "but you habe to listen to the 'sound' not the music"
<aik> I guess it is a matter of training to seperate these two things
<ben_m> aik - it will soon come naturally to you
<ben_m> you'll be listening to a jukebox in a pub and you'll start hearing layers
<ben_m> and noticing the compression and reverb settings
<ben_m> and then you'll realise you haven't actually been listening to the music for the last 5 mins!
<aik> There is actually not very much music which i can't stand
<Rico`> same here
<aik> I think i do know what you are talking about. I know that in classical music. I can forget the music and listen to the sound
<Audiocourses> It is a question of approaching it slightly differently.
<Audiocourses> Sometimes a newcomer to engineering feels they may loose something if they start listening to what they feel they do not like, i.e. taste.
<Audiocourses> This is rubbish though ;)
<Audiocourses> I would encourage you to listen as widely as possile in order to understand what makes that music unique.
<Audiocourses> What elements give Punk it's "audio label" as ben was intimating
<Audiocourses> its..
<aik> but still if you are working with music you will somehow loose the ability not to hear the sound, as I can't access a theatre without looking how the light is rigged
<Audiocourses> Personally there is no music I do not like, but there is a lot of "processing" I do not like.
<Rico`> what do u mean by 'processing'?
<Audiocourses> When I listen to sounds (when working and not dancing) I am analysing everything.
<Audiocourses> I am using "processing" broadly here...
<Audiocourses> so that covers recording and how the recording is treated.
<Rico`> aah ok
<Audiocourses> so I may listen to some track by whoever and realy really appreciate the kick drum sound, yet hate the way the vocal has ben compressed...
<Audiocourses> ben compressed = been compressed (not ben m )
<aik> can you always hear the use of a compressor
<Audiocourses> Hope so :)
<ben_m> :)
<Audiocourses> Compression is hard to hear when starting to look for it..
<ben_m> more to the point can you hear when a compressor hasn't been used! Thats easier way to start
<Audiocourses> but trust me... you WILL know it by the end of this course
<ben_m> we will destroy your capability to enjoy music!
<Audiocourses> lol
<ben_m> :)
<Rico`> lol
<aik> sounds good. i would imagine that you need to know i.e. the voice to hear  the compression
<Audiocourses> NO, you need to know what compression does to a sound
<aik> Thats going to be hard work for you to destroy :)
<aik> i understand
<aik> what does compression to a sound?
<Audiocourses> shall we move into these practicals and have a listen?
<Audiocourses> aik..  we will cover that in big detail soon.
<aik> ok
<Rico`> ok i've uploaded mine now
<Audiocourses> however i have a feeling that detail might be right after listening to these ;)
<aik> ;)
<Audiocourses> ok firing up wavelab here
<Audiocourses> Im importing yours first aik
<aik> ok
<Audiocourses> no do rememebr our job is to critise
<Audiocourses> so don't take anything personally ok
<Audiocourses> we are supposed to be horrible :)
<aik> not at all
<Rico`> hehe
<Rico`> and u will be when u hear mine ;)
<Audiocourses> OK aik, can you tell us how you did this?
* Audiocourses changes topic to 'Classical Edits'
<aik> Well at first I spent the whole week to find out what i should say.
<aik> Then I listened to the music, which I know quite well
<aik> Thought of finding a bang start and a bang end.
<aik> It's a commercial after all
<Audiocourses> sure
<Audiocourses> can you explain what you used..
<aik> I tried to find a musical way to incorporate the voice into the music
<aik> I made the music part first, then recorded the voice, manipulated it and put it in
<Audiocourses> how did you "manipulate" it?
<aik> As I wrote I'm not to happy, especially with the voice, but it is difficult to listen to yous own voice
<Rico`> indeed
<aik> Eq, because it sounded to dusty
<ben_m> 'dusty' - how would you describe dusty?
<aik> Maybe we should have done the voice overs for each other rico
<Rico`> yes that would have been a good idea
<aik> Well I find the music sounds very clear and bright. My voice sounded like i was speaking behind a pillow
<ben_m> ok, were you using a dynamic microphone?
<aik> no i only have a condensor mic
<ben_m> what kind?
<aik> AKG C1000S
<ben_m> right
<ben_m> were you speaking into it on-axis?
<aik> what does that mean?
<ben_m> were you speaking into it with the mic pointing at your mouth or at the ceiling
<ben_m> if that makes sense
<aik> I tried both
<ben_m> on-axis with the C1000 is into the end
<aik> don't understand
<ben_m> mics are built to be used facing the sound source
<ben_m> but with mics such as the C1000 this means pointing the 'tip' at the source
<ben_m> whereas with a larger diaphragm mic this is usually the 'front'
<ben_m> speaking into the mic off axis will create a poor sound
<aik> I think I did that, but will be more concious about it next time
<ben_m> also, other thing that stands out
<ben_m> at 15.3 secs
<ben_m> hear anything?
<aik> I know
<ben_m> tights and a clothes hanger!
<aik> the joint is no good i'm very much aware of it
<ben_m> no i was thinking more of the 'plosive'
<aik> In the voice over?
<ben_m> listen to the 'p' in popular
<Audiocourses> the "PM" is bad also
<ben_m> if you've got a wave editor open zoom right in
<aik> I know what you mean
<ben_m> you'll see a big 'spike' in the signal
<aik> like a digital mistake? no I dont
<ben_m> find the p
<ben_m> in wavelab plosive is at 15s283.107ms
<ben_m> zoom in enough you will see a spike before the rest of the word
<ben_m> i've put jpg on ftp
<aik> ok
<Audiocourses> me too of the later one
<Audiocourses> Do you understand what this sounds like AIK?
<Audiocourses> this plosive?
<aik> I see
<Audiocourses> Do you understand what this sounds like AIK?
<aik> not sure, not very nice i assume
<Audiocourses> The letter P and B are notoriously bad for recording..
<ben_m> 'T's can be a bugger too
<Audiocourses> typically what can happen is that when released from the mouth at the start of a word etc, there is a larger amount of air..
<aik> What would you do to avoid that?
<ben_m> pop shield
<Audiocourses> You get a "pop shield"
<ben_m> or as mentioned ealier
<ben_m> tights and clothes hanger
<aik> All right
<Audiocourses> put your hand in front of your mouth
<Audiocourses> say P and B
<Audiocourses> compare it to other letters
<ben_m> also, the C1000s sometimes come with a foam wind shield which can offer some protection against this
<aik> I find s quite difficult
<Audiocourses> you'll notice poor air
<ben_m> s & t are 'sibilance' rather than plosives
<aik> I did use the windshield
<Audiocourses> Some vocalists (ones used to being recorded) will momentarily turn their head off-axis, before a B or P word
<Audiocourses> thus reducing the air into the mic at that point
<aik> good idea. i will experiment with that
<ben_m> also a pencil tied across the mic is sometimes used
<ben_m> not the best option though ;)
<Audiocourses> looks silly on stage too ;)
<ben_m> too right!
<Rico`> lol
<aik> ;)
<aik> Well apart from thet other feedback?
<Audiocourses> yes well done you made a good start
<Audiocourses> but you will knock spots off it by december
<aik> I certainly hope so
<Audiocourses> There is room for impovement, technically speaking.
<Audiocourses> we will cover thos things over the coming weeks
<aik> I can't see this spike in Cubase. That annoys me
<Audiocourses> and you also will be listening to compression in bars soon.
<aik> By the way I love this feedback trainer
<Audiocourses> ok
<Audiocourses> let's do the other one
<Audiocourses> loading yours Rico
<Rico`> lol its terrible ;)
<Audiocourses> hmm
<Audiocourses> not listened to it yet
<Rico`> i'm quite embarassed about submitting it to be honest heh
<Audiocourses> but you know what
<ben_m> using a PC mic by any chance?
<Audiocourses> I can tell I will need to turn it up
<Rico`> not a pc mic, but almost as bad, its like a cheap karaoke thing
<ben_m> right
<ben_m> onboard soundcard?
<ben_m> sounds like a noisy mic input on the soundcard
<Rico`> soundblaster audigy
<ben_m> really? must be a really noisy mic then
<Audiocourses> short lead? sitting down close to PC?
<Rico`> yes fairly close
<Audiocourses> either way, you wanna work on getting that noise down.
<Rico`> the quality is awful
<Audiocourses> try moving away from that big ole noise generator (the pc)
<Audiocourses> hey don't beat yourself up.. will be fine :)
<Rico`> lol well like i say i was embarrassed to be submitting it
<Rico`> u had a listen aik, or a laugh ;)
<aik> not yet
<Audiocourses> the MXL 990 at $59 would make a world of difference for you
<Audiocourses> cheap condensor mic
<Audiocourses> you really want a condensor for vocals
<ben_m> too right
<Rico`> yes i was going to ask if u could point me in the right direction of a good mic
<ben_m> or one of the red5 range
<ben_m> or the SE Electronics
<Rico`> i'll look into it definately
<Audiocourses> the stuff we talked about with aik's applies also
<Audiocourses> pops and blasts
<Audiocourses> but the worst thing for me is the overal level of the track
<Rico`> yes i noticed when u said about 'P' being difficult
<aik> Yes i hear it
<Audiocourses> how do you account for the level being so quiet?
<Audiocourses> just curious
<Rico`> hmm it didnt sound that quiet when i played back
<Rico`> not compared to my other mp3's
<Rico`> the level of the voice is very quiet compared to the music piece
<Audiocourses> yes that too...
<ben_m> yes, almost inaudible during one passage
<Rico`> but i didnt notice that it was quiet overall
<Audiocourses> Did you not think about making "space" for the vocal?
<Rico`> lookin back i think i shouls have, but at the time i thought i would record short pieces of voice and try and place them over the music
<Audiocourses> OK I think you wanna start looking at sounds as being more about "spaces" for them to sit..
<Audiocourses> all sounds have a particular "window" of frequency..
<Rico`> i tried normalising the voice in sound forge but that just made the 'hissing' worse
<Rico`> ok
<Audiocourses> ekk..  forget normalising..
<Audiocourses> throw it away for now..  dont normalise.
<Rico`> ok, was just rtying in vain to make it sound better
<Rico`> trying
<Audiocourses> but start thinking of colubms of sounds...  from left to right...
<Audiocourses> bass left
<Audiocourses> high end right
<Audiocourses> a spectrum of frequencies
<Audiocourses> so the voice will sit somewhere in the middle
<Audiocourses> a bass drum somewhere towards the left...
<Audiocourses> you know?
<Rico`> yes
<Audiocourses> the individual sounds can't cramp the style to much of other instruments..
<Audiocourses> one of the arts of mixing is making them all sit together happily.
<Audiocourses> letting them breathe
<Rico`> yes, i realised when i listened to aik's
<Audiocourses> I think what we need this week is a listening practical...
<Audiocourses> an excerise where you listen to a track..
<aik> That would be fab
<Audiocourses> over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over
<Audiocourses> over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over
<aik> i like that
<Audiocourses> over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over
<ben_m> great practice for in the studio!
<Audiocourses> over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over
<Audiocourses> over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over
<Audiocourses> hehe
<Audiocourses> get my point?
<aik> still liking it
<Rico`> and over
<Rico`> gotcha
<Audiocourses> I wil post this up in the public area of the fourm, but that doesnt mean an excuse to be shy
<Audiocourses> you will be expected to chat fairly frequently about the production
<aik> post what?
<Audiocourses> I will post instructions about specifics
<Audiocourses> and what to listen for
<Audiocourses> we need to "get our head" IN the mix
<aik> looking forward to that
<Audiocourses> I have a mind to choose a tune none of you will like..
<Rico`> lol
<Audiocourses> but I'll be a little kinder to start with :)
<Audiocourses> ben and myself will have a chat about it.
<aik> that sounds to have a particular reason
<Audiocourses> in terms of getting hold of the track.. i will post a version in the upload area
<Audiocourses> note that this is for educational use..
<Audiocourses> :)
<Audiocourses> any questions on this evenings workshop?
<aik> Yes about the questions
<aik> Are they answered in exam style?
<Audiocourses> good point..
<Audiocourses> Ben.?
<aik> Ben my answers to the computer questions are on their way. Need to write the last few down
<ben_m> i would like to work towards exam style answers yes
<ben_m> ok aik
<Rico`> i have a question about exam dates, need to know what they are for the invigilation form
<aik> Oh yes that form, what institution name do you need?
<Audiocourses> one sec..
<Audiocourses> date first
<Audiocourses> http://www.seic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/JM03/SEICWS/fees.htm
<Audiocourses> ignore the fees bit.. that is covered in your payment plan.
<Audiocourses> Recording Techniques £100.00
<Audiocourses>  Tue 14 Dec 2004
<Audiocourses> Music Technology £100.00
<Audiocourses>  Thu 2 Dec 2004
<Rico`> no way 2 dec is my birthday, can't wait lol
<Audiocourses> lol
<ben_m> doh
<Audiocourses> now aik what did you mean?
<aik> You are asking for the name of my institution. Don't understand
<Audiocourses> you have to go to a place and take the exams
<Audiocourses> a place that is near you who will invigilate your exams for you
<aik> Do i have to find that place?
<Audiocourses> such as a local college etc.
<Audiocourses> yes
<aik> All right I didn't realize that
<Audiocourses> You can take them in london if you like, but probably easier (and cheaper) in your own city
<ben_m> hey guys i've got to go
<ben_m> can we arrange next weeks workshop?
<aik> Yes it's too far to travel from Glasgow to London, even thoughI would fancy
<Audiocourses> sure.. same time and place?
<ben_m> i'm gigging
<aik> good for me
<Audiocourses> friday?
<Rico`> sure ame time is ok for me
<Rico`> friday is good for me also
<aik> Not before 7pm for me
<ben_m> friday or sunday is better for me - saturday is no go unless early afternoon
<Rico`> infact its probably better
<Audiocourses> Friday 7pm english time (6pm GMT) all ok with that?
<Audiocourses> oops
<Rico`> yup
<Audiocourses> cant friday
<Audiocourses> sorry..
<Audiocourses> lol
<aik> perfect
<Rico`> lol
<Audiocourses> saturday earler may be best
<ben_m> ha
<Rico`> sunday it is then
<Audiocourses> saturday early?
<Audiocourses> or sunday late
<ben_m> sunday at 7 (6 uk time)
<aik> It will be sunday then
<Audiocourses> cant sunday at that time sorry.
<Rico`> sunday would be better for me
<aik> sunday late
<Audiocourses> sunday 9 or 10pm
<Rico`> hehe
<ben_m> saturday would need to be finished by 6pm for me
<ben_m> sunday for me too
<Audiocourses> saturday 4pm? or sunday 9pm then?
<aik> english time? good
<ben_m> lol
<Audiocourses> saturday 4pm? or sunday 9pm then?
<aik> sunday 9pm for me
<Rico`> i won't be around till maybe 5.30 saturday
<ben_m> looks like sunday then!
<Audiocourses> sunday it is then 9pm uk time (GMT 8pm)
<Rico`> thats fine for me
<Audiocourses> see you all then :)
<aik> for me as well
<ben_m> oh no...........
<Rico`> phew that was hard work;)
<ben_m> ..........
<ben_m> only joking
<Audiocourses> ben.... grrr
<Rico`> doh
<Rico`> haha
<aik> and we are only 4
<Audiocourses> actually, thinking about it..
<Audiocourses> hehe joking too.. :) there are more, they should be here next week..
<ben_m> right, gotta go, see you next week guys, will leave feedback on forum when you post aik
<aik>  oh by the way Chris, tea works much better then coffee
<Rico`> cya ben
<Audiocourses> huh?
<aik> Thanks ben
<ben_m> cheers everyone
<Audiocourses> tea?
* ben_m has left #audiocourses
<Rico`> i'm off too, cyaz next week
<Audiocourses> cheers.
<Audiocourses> me 2..
<aik> You wrote coffee on the list of things required for the practical
<Rico`> enjoy your week:)
<Audiocourses> ahhh lol
<Rico`> bye bye
* Rico` has quit IRC (Quit: ChaMoNe <censored>! Hee heeee)
<Audiocourses> yes gottcha.. I don't like tea ;)
<Audiocourses> see ya soon.
<aik> you too, have a nice week
<Audiocourses> thanks byee..
<aik> bye bye
* Disconnected
Session Close: Sat Sep 18 21:12:53 2004

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