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Session Start: Sun Oct 31 20:03:49 2004
Session Ident: #audiocourses
* Now talking in #audiocourses
* `Rico has joined #audiocourses
<`Rico> hi chris
<Audiocourses> hey hi
<`Rico> good job i read my mail, would've been an hour late otherwise
<Audiocourses> Well, you may not be alone in that..
<Audiocourses> I'm sure there will be confusion.
* ben_m has joined #audiocourses
<`Rico> heh
<Audiocourses> hi ben
<`Rico> hi ben
<ben_m> hi guys
<Audiocourses> how goes UK this evening?
<ben_m> very trick or treaty
<`Rico> yeah, i've had a couple
<`Rico> i've ignored a couple too ;)
<ben_m> i've just ignored some as i sat down just now
<Audiocourses> bloody american imports..
<Audiocourses> lol
<ben_m> tell me about it...
<ben_m> halloween in milan chris?
<Audiocourses> halloween parties ...
<Audiocourses> they don't do the door knocking here though.. out of respect...
<ben_m> too right
<Audiocourses> they have big fancy dress parties though in country houses.
<ben_m> very civilised
<Audiocourses> Generally it is here..  it's odd though because is a mixture of sophistication and peasantry combined..
<Audiocourses> they don't have the class wars concepts...
<`Rico> lol
<Audiocourses> managing directors are happy to eat with bin collectors
<Audiocourses> on the same table
<`Rico> how it should be
<Audiocourses> one of my favourite bits about here.
<Audiocourses> but i'll yap with anyone, as you mnow ben.
<Audiocourses> know
<ben_m> indeed!
<Audiocourses> angelica is comimg this evening, hope she worked out the new server details.
<Audiocourses> and time changes
<`Rico> it'll be the time changes probably
<ben_m> almost caught me out!
<`Rico> same here, just read the e-mail from chris about half an hour ago
<Audiocourses> yeah it's tough equation that..
<ben_m> very tough ;)
<ben_m> brb
<Audiocourses> whats new rico?
<`Rico> well, i have a form of conjunctivitis. have to insert eye drops every 4 hours, which is nice:/
* aik has joined #audiocourses
<aik> Hi guys
<ben_m> hi aik
<Audiocourses> hey there she is!
<`Rico> other than that i'm knackered from the questions this week;)
<`Rico> hi aik
<Audiocourses> did the questions challenge you?
<`Rico> they certainly did
<`Rico> had to do lots of research on mastering
<`Rico> Sound and recording textbook helped a lot with the MIDI questions
<Audiocourses> great stuff
<Audiocourses> yeah there is a lot of MIDI info in that one..
<Audiocourses> regarding mastering, there is the Bob Katz book.
<Audiocourses> http://www.audiocourses.com/article105.html
<`Rico> yes i came across a few articles that were quoting Bob Katz
<Audiocourses> Worth every penny that one.
* seanm has joined #audiocourses
<seanm> helllooo
<Audiocourses> ciao
<`Rico> hey sean
<aik> hi sean
<seanm> sorry just got your mail chris
* iNSTiNCT2 has joined #audiocourses
<Audiocourses> no worries sean
<ben_m> hi sean & instinct
<iNSTiNCT2> damn internet is actin up...hey guys
<Audiocourses> hi instinct
<`Rico> hi instinct
<ben_m> filling up in here
<iNSTiNCT2> how are u all?
<seanm> hi ben instinct rico aik
<seanm> like the waltons in ere
<aik> good to be back
<`Rico> not too bad, hiding from 'trick or treaters'
<iNSTiNCT2> haha jokes..just give'em pencils..they wont come back next year
<Audiocourses> great to have you back aik.. 
<`Rico> lol
* Audiocourses changes topic to 'Halloween Sheen'
* Audiocourses grabs his "scream mask"
<Audiocourses> Shall we get down to some serious stuff?
<aik> yes we better
<iNSTiNCT2> sure
<Audiocourses> Let's get into mastering
* Audiocourses changes topic to 'Halloween Mastering'
<Audiocourses> Anyone complete their mastering practical?
<aik> not yet
<`Rico> i've had a go, gonna upload now
<Audiocourses> good man
<`Rico> just had a quick go of it hto
<seanm> i was just gonna make some adjustments before workshop
<`Rico> tho
<seanm> but i have done a few versions
<Audiocourses> What the track again, I forget..
<`Rico> i did a couple
<seanm> need you love so bad
<`Rico> fleetwood mac
<seanm> your
<Audiocourses> ah yes..
<Audiocourses> a dynamic number that one..
<seanm> proper fleetwood mac
<Audiocourses> Hearing that tune on FM radio (almost any) always sounds so different to me..
<Audiocourses> anyone hazzard a guess why?
<seanm> limiting and compression?
<Audiocourses> Let's talk of compression first..
<Audiocourses> what does compression do?
<seanm> evens out dynamics
<aik> takes off the top of the gain
<Audiocourses> ok you are both on the money... the technical term you ought to be using is "reduces the dynamic range"
<Audiocourses> The dynamic range being what?
<aik> alright
<aik> the dynamic range being too big
<aik> ??
<Audiocourses> what is the dynamic range? - how would you define it?
<`Rico> dynamic range is the difference between the peak level and the noise floor
<seanm> the difference between the loudest and quietest part of the signal
<Audiocourses> here we go..
<aik> my words
<Audiocourses> so a compressor reduces the difference.
<Audiocourses> makes the loud bits quiter and the quiet bits louder..
<aik> it makes all quieter
<Audiocourses> how much depends on the ratio..
<Audiocourses> and exactly which bits depends on the threshold.
<Audiocourses> now..
<Audiocourses> why did I mention radio stations?
<seanm> they compress everything?
<Audiocourses> yes sean they do.
<seanm> to keep broadcast at same level
<Audiocourses> yes
<iNSTiNCT2> the radio stations compress the crap out of ur mix...
<Audiocourses> why instinct?
<iNSTiNCT2> like u said..to keep the broadcast at a reasonably even level
<Audiocourses> a few reasons ...
<Audiocourses> 1
<iNSTiNCT2> to make sure everything is heard..
<Audiocourses> radio stations have a limit on how loud they can broadcast at..
<Audiocourses> if they send a signal at a higher level, they would blow up grandmothers transitor radio..
<Audiocourses> i.e. over modulate the transmitters
<Audiocourses> that's one reason
<Audiocourses> but that can be achieved by limiting the output right?
<aik> it should
<`Rico> i would think so
<Audiocourses> yes it can aik
<Audiocourses> so they have this limit they all have to work to..
<Audiocourses> compression is used to make the long term average signal louder..
<Audiocourses> i.e. get a lot of the signal close to that max for a longer period of time
<Audiocourses> does that make sense?
<`Rico> it does
<seanm> yes cheating
<`Rico> lol
<Audiocourses> well
<Audiocourses> the thing is..
<aik> but what if you want to have that dynamic range in your mix?
<Audiocourses> you choose a non commercial station
<aik> I see
<aik> they don't compress then?
<Audiocourses> the popular stations are typically aiming at a listening who listens at work, in a car, while drying their hair etc...
<aik> or watching TV
<Audiocourses> yes..
<Audiocourses> radio (popular) is generally not aimed at armchair listeners
<Audiocourses> whereas classical programs are... which have very little compression.
<aik> You would destroy classical music with to much compression
<ben_m> totally
<Audiocourses> not only do popular stations use a ton of compression, they also multiband it...
<aik> What's that? i guess I should know
<Audiocourses> which not only changes the dynamics but also changes the e.q. in a more efficent way..
<Audiocourses> Ben...  wanna?
<ben_m> sure
<Audiocourses> cool
<ben_m> ok, upto now, the type of compression we have been talking about is sometimes called 'singleband'
<ben_m> singleband meaning the entire signal is treated as one by a single compressor
<ben_m> multiband works with a number of indiviudal compressors
<ben_m> often 3 or 4
<ben_m> each compressor only affects one 'band' of the signal
<ben_m> by band we mean frequency range
<ben_m> so for instance you could set up a band from 20Hz - 150Hz
<ben_m> this would be the bass frequencies
<ben_m> you could then set your threshold ratio settings for the bass 'band'
<ben_m> you would then repeat this with the other bands
<ben_m> usually the bands will be broken into low, low-mid, hi-mid and treble
<ben_m> the bands are also, at least on better compressors, fully user definable
<ben_m> this is a very important tool for mastering engineers
<ben_m> and it is also used by recording engineers at times to (on pop vocals for instance)
<ben_m> you can also create multiband compression with a collection of normal compressors
<aik> in other words, they  basically create a new piece of music, the radio stations I mean
<ben_m> well, dynamically
<ben_m> they won't really have the time to sort out optimal mastering settings for each track
<aik> the dynamics are an essential part of music I think
<ben_m> so 'master' settings will be used on the output before transmission
<Audiocourses> thta point about "time" that ben mentions is important..
<ben_m> aik - dynamics are in some forms of music but in others you would be suprised
<ben_m> some modern tracks may only utilise 2-3 bits of the available dynamic range
<Audiocourses> some tunes can sound hideous, like form nowhere suddenly we hear the congas loud as hell.
<ben_m> hehe - common in breakdowns
<ben_m> suddenly the 'quiet bit' is loud
<ben_m> however this trend of radio overcompression has also influenced normal mastering
<ben_m> as i mentioned earlier some modern tracks are compressed like this before they go to stations
<ben_m> and this is a trend that many in the audio world, bob katz included, are very vocal about
<ben_m> but...
<ben_m> back to multiband compression
<ben_m> any idea how....
<aik> It might be an old fashioned idea, but don't you think about dynamics as a musician, what ever kind of music you are producing
<ben_m> you could create a multiband compressor using a number of singleband compressors and eq/filters?
<seanm> side chain the compressors with filters
<ben_m> simpler than that
<ben_m> ok think about what is happening
<ben_m> the audio is split into 'bands'
<`Rico> would you change the threshold on each compressor
<ben_m> so if we wanted 3 bands, low, mid and high how could we do this with eq/filters?
<seanm> create them and place before the compressors
<ben_m> rico - no that would just compress at different thresholds
<seanm> thinking nuendo here
<ben_m> so how do you 'create them'?
<ben_m> do you know these abbreviations HPF, LPF, BP ?
<seanm> copy track and filter 
<seanm> one of each?
<ben_m> getting there sean - more detail needed!
<seanm> high pass filter on one
<seanm> band pass for mids
<seanm> low pass for bottom
<ben_m> great sean - do you all understand this?
<seanm> does this work?
<ben_m> yes although not as well as a true MB compressor
<`Rico> yeah i can see how it would work
<seanm> i'm trying to imagine it in nuendo
<Audiocourses> yeah it's a great technique
<seanm> how accurate with the filters do you need to be
<ben_m> well, this is another can of worms
<ben_m> ideally you want the steepest slope possible (expressed in dB/octave)
<ben_m> and the cutoff points to not overlap
<ben_m> obviously there will be overlaps unless you have 'brickwall' filters
<ben_m> as the slopes will reach into other bands
<ben_m> also, it can get complicated with phase
<ben_m> but it is a good experiment to try
<ben_m> can be done with graphic eqs too
<ben_m> need one graphic per band obviously
<Audiocourses> well worth a try in your editors guys..
<Audiocourses> you'll be shocked and the tonality changes possible
<seanm> will do
<Audiocourses> and you don;t have to stop at three or four bands
<Audiocourses> if you work in octaves, set a stereo pair up for each octave of the music..
<Audiocourses> you'll have a ricky martin sounding tune before you know it!
<ben_m> hehe
<`Rico> lol
<seanm> yuc
<Audiocourses> 2 bob music..  or should that be 2 bit music..
<Audiocourses> :)
* Audiocourses watches the tumbleweeds roll past.
<seanm> :)
<seanm> never done that before
<ben_m> haha
<Audiocourses> so
<Audiocourses> shall we listen to anyones work now?
<seanm> can i say i've been ill all week
<ben_m> yes you can
<ben_m> ;)
<Audiocourses> but it makes no difference lol
<seanm> just put one up
<`Rico> i've put 2 versions in my folder, in the same zip
<`Rico> havnt had a chance to listen to them on a different system
<seanm> done four was gonna revisist tonight but
<`Rico> yeah i thought i had another hour to do it, damn clock change
<Audiocourses> grabing yours rico
<`Rico> ok
<Audiocourses> opening
<seanm> ben i've nearly finished your questions prob be tues before i post tho
<ben_m> as long as it doesn't cause too much of a knock on effect with questions this week
<Audiocourses> got number 1 on..  blimey mate!
<ben_m> should be ok
<Audiocourses> chekcing out number 2
<Audiocourses> what did you use rico for these?
<`Rico> i used cool edit
<Audiocourses> yuck
<Audiocourses> lol
<`Rico> heh
<Audiocourses> sorry.. i knew it.
<Audiocourses> which version?
<`Rico> cool edit pro version 2
<`Rico> had a go in soundforge
<Audiocourses> ohh no you are talking
<`Rico> but no more about cool edit
<Audiocourses> now
<`Rico> know
<Audiocourses> ahh.. i find cool edit has "a sound"
<Audiocourses> but i could be wrong :)
<Audiocourses> DO you use cool edit for all your productions then?
<`Rico> i try to have a look in both cool edit and soundforge
<Audiocourses> I go with sound forge if i were you.. out of the two for mastering...
<Audiocourses> but of course it's preferential
<`Rico> ok
<Audiocourses> I've never liked the sound cool edit produces
<Audiocourses> i find it "brittle"
<ben_m> yeah
<ben_m> maybe its the colour scheme? ;)
<Audiocourses> lol
<`Rico> hehe its not very easy on the eye
<Audiocourses> it's cause it has cool in the title
<ben_m> lol
<ben_m> finally we cracked the puzzle
<Audiocourses> do you know what I mean by a brittle sound?
<`Rico> not really
<Audiocourses> hmm
<Audiocourses> edgy
<Audiocourses> sharp
<`Rico> aah yes
<ben_m> usually a little over emphasised in the treble freqs
<Audiocourses> aside from that..
<Audiocourses> it seems to "pump" a lot also..
<Audiocourses> do you understand that?
<Audiocourses> not cool edit..  your mix i mean
<ben_m> hehe
<`Rico> i'm not sure i do
<Audiocourses> ben..?
<ben_m> ok
<Audiocourses> wanna pump it up for them..
<ben_m> hehe
<ben_m> right, your first example
<ben_m> take a listen
<ben_m> listen to the snare
<ben_m> and to the kick/bass gtr
<ben_m> notice how the overall level of the track appears to change
<`Rico> yeah its going up and down
<ben_m> when the vocals come in this is very obvious
<ben_m> the bass guitar pulls the track down
<ben_m> right, this up and down is called 'pumping'
<ben_m> this is usually undesirable
<ben_m> but in some forms of electroniuc music it is an effect
<ben_m> pumping can be remedied by changing the 'release' time on the compressor
<ben_m> release is how long it takes for the signal to return to the normal level
<ben_m> can you all hear this pumping on the first example?
<`Rico> man, its so obvious now u identified it
<ben_m> it always stresses my ears out a bit
<ben_m> it feels strained
<`Rico> yeah its not nice
<ben_m> have you all had a chance to check this pumping?
<seanm> yes
<aik> I can't open it for some reason
<aik> tried to download it several times
<iNSTiNCT2> yeah
<ben_m> aik - try to save it first before opening it
<Audiocourses> it is zipped aik..
<ben_m> quirk of winzip
<aik> I know
<aik>  i'll give it another try
<Audiocourses> mastering is a tricky concept to get your ears around when starting out..
<Audiocourses> often better left to the pro mastering houses.
<Audiocourses> though
<Audiocourses> we all ought to be able to master our own work..
<Audiocourses> instinct, do you master yourself?
<aik> It might be a stupid question but I always wondered what the difference is between mastering and editing
<iNSTiNCT2> nah chris..i let others do that...
<iNSTiNCT2> its tought mastering ur own mix, might not be able to hear the details that need work
<iNSTiNCT2> tough
<aik> Oh yes I can hear the pumping very well
<iNSTiNCT2> plus im not that good at it :)... maybe some day
<Audiocourses> it is tricky being objective I agree..
<seanm> instinct do you attend the mastering
<Audiocourses> aik if you can hear it, that is good.
<iNSTiNCT2> what u mean sean?
<seanm> when you said you lket others do it
<seanm> do you go
<seanm> and see what they're doing
<iNSTiNCT2> oh..yeah when its local i do..but right now im using xarc mastering in germany so its sent over the net back and forth..
<iNSTiNCT2> so cant really attend there
<seanm> thanks just interested
<Audiocourses> ok so rico..  you got some things to think about now regarding this..
<`Rico> yup
<Audiocourses> do you need feedback on yours sean ..?
<iNSTiNCT2> i had a 9 track project sean, where all the tracks were way different levels and the mastering engineer made the stuff sound so even, its crazy....thats another thing i find difficult even though i havent tried it, but getting a multiple track mastering session to have all the tracks evenly loud
<seanm> if you would?
<Audiocourses> NYLSB 24 tnt dc offset NR rcomp bbe L2.rar?
<seanm> interesting instinct be good to know how they do it
<ben_m> ha wondering the same thing here!
<seanm> yes chris ben
<ben_m> :)
<seanm> sorry my ref names from diff versions
<seanm> not time to rename tonight
<Audiocourses> loaded and playing
<Audiocourses> such a great track..
<Audiocourses> oohh what was that.
<seanm> that voc blip?
<Audiocourses> hmm
<seanm> seems to be on my version
<ben_m> and right channel dips out around 44s
<seanm> on my version again
<ben_m> ok
<Audiocourses> yeah its  bugger to master..
<ben_m> by the file name it appears you used BBE sonic maximiser?
<Audiocourses> often might be better to isolate some areas.. and treat differently..
<ben_m> added harmonics to the treble perchance?
<seanm> think so
<seanm> bbe?
<ben_m> bbe sonic maximiser
<seanm> yes
<ben_m> plug-in
<seanm> yes
<ben_m> top end on this is very different from Ricos
<Audiocourses> indeed
<ben_m> almost certainly the sonic maximiser
<Audiocourses> ahh  what a guitar solo...
<seanm> was reading about the smile curve
<seanm> tried it out
<ben_m> ah yes - the DJs friend
<Audiocourses> that's a fairly decent crack at it sean
<seanm> didn't think i did v much tov it
<seanm> wanted to get rid of some of the hiss
<`Rico> if it aint broke.. they say
<Audiocourses> the old analogue recording and bouncing down has really been shown in this version..
<seanm> the pannng?
<seanm> panning
<Audiocourses> sharing of tracks for different instruments essentially.
<Audiocourses> bleeding..  you can notice it when there are those apparent drop outs.
<seanm> drums and bass seem very left
<Audiocourses> yeah a bit "overdone" on the cymbals, but you are on the right road..
<seanm> where you stand on the tape hiss
<Audiocourses> i like it lol
<seanm> one of my ref tracks
<Audiocourses> to a dgree
<seanm> suprised me lots of hiss
<seanm> relatively modern recording
<iNSTiNCT2> what yr is the fleetwood mac track from?
<Audiocourses> oh that's not uncommon
<ben_m> well, not exactly
<Audiocourses> late 60s instinct
<Audiocourses> i think. 
<seanm> 67-69 i think
<ben_m> yeah, when peter green was still coherent
<iNSTiNCT2> aight
<seanm> amazing to think it was a hit
<Audiocourses> might be earlier
<Audiocourses> 68 i think
<Audiocourses> no 69
<seanm> you bin checkin?
<Audiocourses> just checked and found it as 69
<ben_m> long time in recording - seriously
<Audiocourses> yup
<seanm> was all gas then
<ben_m> hehe
<`Rico> lol
<Audiocourses> no cool edit them ;)
<`Rico> happy times;)
<seanm> hehe
<Audiocourses> Guys almost time..
<Audiocourses> next week..
<Audiocourses> sunday ok?
<`Rico> fine with me
<seanm> yes
<Audiocourses> is 8 in uk better for you people?
<aik> yes
<seanm> is it too late for you
<ben_m> either ok with me
<Audiocourses> no
<seanm> 8 fine for me then
<`Rico> either
<Audiocourses> GMT 20 then
<aik> ok
<iNSTiNCT2> i liked 7 uk but majority rules...haha
<seanm> chris bin ill need to write up your answers will send asap
<Audiocourses> ill check questions..
<Audiocourses> regarding questions..
<Audiocourses> can we all really get on it now..
<seanm> ye
<Audiocourses> we need some serious study weeks from now on in
<`Rico> got it
<iNSTiNCT2> chris i've posted my q's but some i need help with..some links or something would be nice
<`Rico> not long now
<Audiocourses> ok instinct
<iNSTiNCT2> thanks
<Audiocourses> no it isnt long now.. it will rush up quickly
<Audiocourses> we need maximum effort now..
<seanm> rico aik wanna meet here tues 8?
<`Rico> sure
<aik> yes
<seanm> okay
<Audiocourses> ok guys have a good week.. and get in touch if you need anything ok..
<Audiocourses> dont wait.
<`Rico> righto
<aik> I certainly will
<seanm> ok see you all
<iNSTiNCT2> see ya next week people...bye'
<`Rico> cyaz next week
<ben_m> cheers guys
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<seanm> see you two tues
<aik> great
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