AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2014
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| Live Workshop - 080505 |
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mixindown: Hi guys
mpfcoh: howdo
skip_491: hi mix
mixindown: hey skip
mixindown: hows everyones week been?
hoaxwagon has joined the conference.
acousticalweaponsdivision: weeks been ok
skip_491: good here long and hard
mpfcoh: yeah, good week
mixindown: was there enough questions for everyone on RT this week?
acousticalweaponsdivision: hehe i take it there was a lot then?
hoaxwagon: I could use a few more
mixindown: you got it!
mrbisto: Welcome to the "peak", now it's easier...
mixindown: we did have some "repeats" though so it could have been worse. ha
mrbisto: now the now then now then... (who said that?)
mixindown: jimmy
mrbisto: good stuff...
mixindown: the savilllllleeeeee
mrbisto: Jimmy
mrbisto: The worlds first DJ..
mrbisto: However...
mrbisto: I have some things I desire to cover.. a little bit of a schedule...
mrbisto: 1. Exam Centres
2. Community
3. AUdioblog (and text)
4. LENGTH Of ANSWERS
5. Flash Content
6. mASTERING
mrbisto: So if we can lets just mention the first on the list...
mrbisto: This week really is the last week for exam centres to be finalized...
mrbisto: I am aware a couple or three still need to organize this one.
mrbisto: If this does apply to you can you kick yourself a little.. (well a lot) and get the detials to me tomorrow.
rv_1210: will do
mrbisto: You only need supply the contact name and place...
mrbisto: Then C&G will take over from there just like the TV Show 24.
mrbisto: OK that's numero uno.... moving on to 2...
mrbisto: 2. Community ..
mrbisto: Under this heading I wish to point out the importance of "In-Week" dialogue...
mrbisto: I've noted one or two occasions of isolation creep in...
mrbisto: now.............
skip_491: rot rohhhhhhhh
x016178 has joined the conference.
mrbisto: now
x016178: Hi all!
mrbisto: now
skip_491: now you guysss better be postin ur stuff lol
rv_1210: yo yo
skip_491: hi x
mixindown: hi x
x016178: John I enjoyed your eurovision comment.
mrbisto: As distance learning students, people, peers.....
mixindown: lol
mpfcoh: hi x0
mrbisto: the enemdy is isolation...
mrbisto: isolation is something we MUST all help each other with... (that's why we have these LWs)
mrbisto: Many of yu grab me during the week and we have chats.. this is good... but if you don't do this already... start!
mrbisto: even if it is to post me some comic links...
mrbisto: The C&G course is well over the summit now, and you've all come through the tough areas...
mrbisto: but, we gotta really starp ourselves in now for the last bit, the home straight.
x016178: How many more weeks of questions with C&G?
mrbisto: Two weeks more of content (i know just two)
mrbisto: two weeks of questions......
mrbisto: then....
mrbisto: mock exams
mrbisto: and revisions week.
mrbisto: I'd like you'll all to pull together in these next few weeks..
mrbisto: Now there are many ways of doing this.....
mrbisto: which is my wonderful DJ link into topic 3 from the list..
mrbisto: 3. AUdioblog (and text)
mrbisto: Some of you may or may not have gotten offline messages regarding this..
mrbisto: Basically we have set up a blog site for YOU...
mrbisto: This allows you all (students only) to blog your feelings and emotions, with others.
mrbisto: This I can't encourage enough as it really wil help eliminate any sense of isolation...
mrbisto: I have to thanks mixindown already for his wonderful post...
mrbisto: along with mpfcoh for his...
mpfcoh: yw
mixindown: lol good therapy
mrbisto: both of these are very good examples of how some of you others who may be "lurkers" could blog...
mrbisto: We have the blog set up in two ways...
mrbisto: a) you can dial a telephone number and leave a message (gets blogged immediately)
mrbisto: b) can post a text blog....
mrbisto: c) can do both
mrbisto: http://www.audiocourses.com/blog is the url...
mrbisto: and i have posted details of how to audio blog in the School Reception.
mrbisto: I will also ADD ANY student as a "Team Member" for the blog......which essentially allows you to text blog at any time..
mrbisto: So this coming week, please grab me online so we can help get you blogging, this "social" aspect is very important. Plus you will be able to build on this with time...
mrbisto: Just before I move on any questions?
hoaxwagon: nope
mpfcoh: just a comment rather than a question
mrbisto: fire away
mpfcoh: i enjoyed doing a blog - found it quite theraputic, in fact!
mrbisto: That's good to hear!
mpfcoh: i agree that you can feel quite isolated working in a home studio on your own & this was fun to do
mpfcoh: i'd recommend it!
mixindown: I agree mpfcoh, that was why I did it.
mrbisto: There you go people, he's one to trust!
mpfcoh: must get my crackling headset sorted before the next one though...
mixindown: Until you try it, you don't know the effect it has when you hear your blog back.
jaminuk: brb
skip_491: hb
mpfcoh: ans it's always nice to hear other people's voices!
mrbisto: This week I intend to (with some maps) start to blog where you are all located in the world.. I'll put that in with your audioblogs
mixindown: great
mrbisto: I must admit I was delighted to hear these two voices.
mpfcoh: two northerners....
mixindown: I must be a northerner from the south.
mpfcoh: you sounded like a northerner to me...
hoaxwagon: lol
mixindown: well.I do my best...
mpfcoh: a slight Welsh burr, maybe?
mixindown: maybe I can do northerner voice overs.
mpfcoh: lol
mixindown: Yeah, I'm from South Wales.
skip_491: lol south wales is north lol
mixindown: lol
mpfcoh: close enough
mixindown: funny compasses her in the UK skip
mrbisto: I imagine the people who live not in UK are not really appreciating this debate.
mrbisto: lol
skip_491: lol
mrbisto: Moving on to my next topic.
mrbisto: 4. LENGTH Of ANSWERS
hoaxwagon: uh oh
mrbisto: This is just to indicate that may of the answers (I have seen) are fine.. not pointing the finger.....
mrbisto: but everyone is a little guilty in places of cheating on themselves
mrbisto: Don't steal from yourselves people... answer fully always...
mrbisto: I understand you have had lots to do, so leave the pub for a couple nights and stay home!
mrbisto: Bang in some hard work now for a couple weeks or three..
mrbisto: Generally the level has been excellent...
mrbisto: which is why i am mentioning this just once.
mrbisto: Stay on it.. and treat EACH answer with the energy you can give it.
mrbisto: any questions on that?
skip_491: none here
mrbisto: Next topic....
mrbisto: 5. Flash Content
mrbisto: What's he on about now? ... hmmmmmmm
mrbisto: Bascially Audiocourses.com is re-disigning some flash content for promotional purposes..
mrbisto: We are building with a third party design company a new flash presentation.
mrbisto: We would rather use some material from students...
skip_491: our pictures?
mrbisto: Materials means, MP3s, Graphics, Your Pictures, Your images,
skip_491: got a couple pics of my mixer
mrbisto: Skip would all be very welcome...
mrbisto: We will credit everyone if your stuff is used...
mrbisto: Perhaps you have a 15 mp3 of a tune......... tell me if you do!
mrbisto: Can we use your latest composition?
mrbisto: Want us to use your voice as a voice oveR?
mixindown: all sounds good.
mixindown: I can do a northern accent.
mrbisto: perfect
mpfcoh: heehee
reynola31: brb
mrbisto: If you want IN... let us know here: http://www.audiocourses.com/ftopict-1660.html#6315
mrbisto: Any questions?
skip_491: no it all sounds great
hoaxwagon: none here Chris
mpfcoh: sounds good to me
mrbisto: ok, moving on.
acousticalweaponsdivision: sounds good
mrbisto: 6. mASTERING
skip_491: thats the way to use ur resources
mixindown: great here
mrbisto: mastering... so didn't we have a practical some time ago?
skip_491: <<hmmm i'm think'n
skip_491:
mrbisto: SKip you didn't but I'll set you up with it too.
skip_491: ut oh ok
skip_491: lol
mrbisto: First.. before we listen to any...
mrbisto: I'd like to hand the floor over to Ben..
jaminuk: ok
mrbisto: and perhaps ben could outline some mastering concepts as freshers.
mrbisto: AND
mrbisto: combine that into the MT content..
jaminuk: mastering - who's familiar with the term and what it entails?
mpfcoh: polishing the final mix?
jaminuk: yes, thats a good start
mixindown: finishing things off, third phase in recording.
skip_491: preparing the final mix for recording
jaminuk: ok as you can see from the answers you've given already
jaminuk: there are a few diferent facets of mastering
jaminuk: there are purely technical procesess
jaminuk: for instance
jaminuk: removing silence at start/end of tracks
jaminuk: removing DC offset from a track (if present)
jaminuk: changing bit rate/applying dither etc
jaminuk: there are also more 'creative' processes
jaminuk: for instance
jaminuk: applying EQ to the finished mix
jaminuk: Mastering tends to be the last stage before the music is pressed/printed/duplicated etc
skip_491: compression?
jaminuk: There are a few common processes that take place in Mastering
jaminuk: skip - you can read my mind
jaminuk: yes compression
skip_491: lol
skip_491: tytytytyttttttyyyyyyy
jaminuk: damn, you're good
skip_491: thank you
skip_491: <<<grins
jaminuk: ok as well as compression you will also see EQ
jaminuk: as well as limiting
jaminuk: When you work on your own music in Cubase or whatever
jaminuk: and then export a stereo .wav file
jaminuk: put it on CD and play it on the home HiFi, you're probably struck my how much 'quieter' your mixes are
jaminuk: and you have to crank the volume up
jaminuk: anyone here experienced that?
rv_1210: yup
quinnersboy: yip
skip_491: yes
hoaxwagon: yes
acousticalweaponsdivision: yes, sometimes
mixindown: yep
jaminuk: well this is the most 'noticeable' element of the mastering process
mixindown: loudness maximizers. lol
jaminuk: obviously this would be acheived through compression (and possibly a limiter)
jaminuk: yes, loudness maximisers are common, certainly in software forms
jaminuk: Often multi-band compression is used on the mix
jaminuk: have we covered MB compression in a workshop - I can't remember?
mpfcoh: ben, do you think loudness maximizers are maybe overused these days?
jaminuk: mpfcoh - kind of, it's more to do with the musical climate that everyone seems hell bent on getting their music as loud as possible
skip_491: not that i kow of ben
jaminuk: ok
mpfcoh: the "loudness race"?
jaminuk: normal compression is singleband compression
jaminuk: mpfcoh - yes the loudness race! Bob Katz has written a lot on this
jaminuk: by singleband compressionwe mean that the threshold and ratio settings we are using are affecting the entire audio track, all frequencies etc
jaminuk: Multi band compression works in frequency bands
jaminuk: broadly speaking
jaminuk: low (bass), lo-mid, hi-mid, top (treble)
jaminuk: that would be a 4 band multiband compressor
jaminuk: a 3 band may be
jaminuk: lo, mid, top
jaminuk: these bands are defined by the user
jaminuk: and each band has its own settings (threshold, ratio, attack release)
jaminuk: what do you think the advantage of using a multi-band over a single band may be?
skip_491: could boost the low's and cut the high's
mixindown: in any selected band
skip_491: or the other way around
acousticalweaponsdivision: you can adjust particular frequencies
mpfcoh: make the bass more "punchy"?
jaminuk: yes, you have more 'control'
hoaxwagon: compress just the kick not the cymbals
jaminuk: one common problem with using a singleband compressor for mastering
jaminuk: is that Low Freq content such as the kick drum
quinnersboy: is reduced
jaminuk: is usually quite prominent in terms of volume and therefore will always trigger the threshold bringing everything down
mpfcoh: is that what causes "pumping" sometimes when a mix is overcompressed?
jaminuk: with the multiband you could focus on the kick drum and bass guitar fow example
skip_491: is this when you boost low end EQ?
jaminuk: mpfcoh - yes - that is exactly it - the release time is very important and you can make a compressor pump by changing the release time
jaminuk: skip - it depends on what you want it to sound like but it is not EQ per se, we are still only talking dynamic range
jaminuk: you could also isolate other areas such as cymbals/hats etc
mixindown: so the point is not to trigger gain reduction in other bands.
jaminuk: mixindown - yes, each band is completely independent from the others
jaminuk: as well as multiband compression
jaminuk: EQ is often used
jaminuk: Many mastering Engineers will say that if you need to apply more than about 2dB of EQ cut or gain at the mastering process
jaminuk: then the track is badly mixed
mixindown: or it wasn't recorded correctly?
jaminuk: yes, it could be although it would be the studio producers job to ensure that the tracks are recorded properly
jaminuk: but essentially the mastering engineers job is only to 'fine tune' and enhance the mix
jaminuk: The mastering engineer may also find technical problems with the track
jaminuk: for instance phase relationships causing instruments to disappear in mono playback
skip_491: clicks or pops?
jaminuk: That is a common problem
jaminuk: skip - yes, and other artefacts
jaminuk: Also the mastering engineer will have a knowledge of what format the music will be manufactured on
jaminuk: for instance,
jaminuk: Vinyl - stereo information in the LFs can cause a record to throw the needle off the groove
jaminuk: CDs also have limitations
jaminuk: for instance
jaminuk: in the digital domain we often work with a 'unit' called dBfs
jaminuk: 0dBfs is the maximum level in digital equipment
jaminuk: the loudest signal in dBFS will be expressed in Binary as 11111111
jaminuk: well theres actually a few more but you see the number only conists of 1s
jaminuk: now if music is compressed/limited to the point that there is a lot of audio hitting 0dBfs
jaminuk: then many CD players will lose their timing integrity
jaminuk: and digital playback errors can occur
jaminuk: So the mastering engineer will maybe apply a limiter with a limit of 0.2dBfs
jaminuk: sorry
jaminuk: -0.2dbfs
jaminuk: Mastering is something you can try at home
jaminuk: although obviously you won't have the ultra expensive speakers/soundproofing
jaminuk: Software such as Cubase, Wavelab, Pro Tools
jaminuk: allow you to add effects into insert points on the master bus
jaminuk: So you can export straight out
jaminuk: How many of you have tried this?
mpfcoh: ben, what's he best order to apply these effects? e.g. EQ, then compression, then limiting, or...?
jaminuk: ok
jaminuk: the eq->compression argument still rages
skip_491: i've tried it but my buss had a flat tire
jaminuk: skip - boom boom!
jaminuk: with wavelab for instance
skip_491: i use mine eq >compressor > limitor
jaminuk: you can easily drag your inserts around so you can check the different sounds you can acheive
jaminuk: limiting will always come right at the end of the chain
mixindown: just got wavelab so gonna try it this week
jaminuk: so you know that the limit you set will not be affected by any other processes further down the chain
jaminuk: Wavelab is a fantastic piece of software - it also has built in metering for freq, phase, bit usage etc
mpfcoh: and limiting should come after the master fader, right?
mixindown: will use the Ozone plug in with it.
jaminuk: yes, if you have a post fader insert then this is where you'd apply it
jaminuk: Ozone is a good all-in-one mastering solution for a good price
jaminuk: In fact I think we reviewed a version for the site last year didn't we chris?
mrbisto: I think we did somewhere ben..
mrbisto: Also guys (just to butt in)
mixindown: good support too
mrbisto: parallel compression is useful... (not just inserte)
skip_491: i've done that before chris
jaminuk: yes, that is good at mixdown stage too
skip_491: left and right channel
mixindown: how does it work?
jaminuk: its quite simple
jaminuk: the basics of it are that you send a copy of your signal (via aux bus or insert point or similiar)
jaminuk: to another channel and then apply compression to the 'copy'
jaminuk: usually with instant attack, low threshold, low ratio
jaminuk: your original signal is not compressed
jaminuk: so what you do is blend in your compressed copy with your dry signal
jaminuk: so you keep the original dynamics intact
jaminuk: but also have the extra 'punch'/body etc of a compressed signal
mrbisto: works a treat on overheads and room abience, for that BIG room sound..
mpfcoh: is this common in mastering?
jaminuk: again this is easy to in Cubase - create a group track, use aux send on audio part to send to group
jaminuk: apply effect on group inserts
jaminuk: its more common in mixdowns, but it is done in mastering
jaminuk: only problem you can have with parallel compression are phase problems
jaminuk: although most software now has delay compensation
jaminuk: this would we worth trying actually, parallel compression for a practical maybe?
mrbisto: sure would be
jaminuk: or some mastering?
mrbisto: They had a mastering practical already...
mrbisto: though I'm not certain how many returns we had
jaminuk: was this last week?
mrbisto: lol
jaminuk: <tumbleweed>
mrbisto: the answer my friend,, is blowing in the wind
jaminuk:
x016178: http://www.audiocourses.com/forum-219.html
x016178: http://www.audiocourses.com/forum-218.html
jaminuk: week 8 - ok
mpfcoh: hmmm, "The forum you selected does not exist"
mrbisto: mpfcoh, you wont be able to see that..
mrbisto: that's C&G turf
mpfcoh: ah, that explains it
mrbisto: http://www.audiocourses.com/ftopict-1622.html
skip_491: i guess were outtttt lol
mrbisto: that's the practical
mrbisto: Skip you can do this, as I said.
x016178: oooooh.
mrbisto: ~hands skip a tissue~
skip_491:
mrbisto: SO that should be completed guys.
skip_491: so no one uses 2 compressors at once?
mrbisto: Employing the techniques Ben discussed.
skip_491: before mastering right?
mrbisto: Skip.. I do...
skip_491: oh good so i'm not crazy
mrbisto: I don't know
mrbisto:
mixindown: yeah, your still ........crazy.you just got two compressors skip.
mrbisto: lol
skip_491:
mixindown: lol
skip_491: laffin
mrbisto: Anyway to sumamrise.....
mrbisto: Ben thanks for that, was very good
skip_491: yah it was ben thanks
mpfcoh: cheers ben
jaminuk: no probs
mrbisto: The Mastering outline should prompt some of us into some experimentation.
mixindown: thanks ben
mrbisto: Mastering IS subjective....
mrbisto: but of course techniques DO exist.
mpfcoh: ben, chris, can i just ask... do you guys generally master your own stuff, or do you get it mastered at a mastering studio?
mrbisto: It might be fun for some of you to swap some of your tracks...
mrbisto: get someoe else tomaster your tune.....
mrbisto: simply to see how someone else "hears" it.
mixindown: thats a great idea
mrbisto: mpfcoh, depends what it is for.... personally I'm a fan of the "mastering engineer" as a trade in itself.
skip_491: only a fool is his own lawyer
mrbisto: Skip you talk in riddles.
mpfcoh: lol skip
mrbisto: Or is it this Tuscan vino?
skip_491: lol dont do your own mastering
mixindown: defend thy self skip
skip_491: i'm tryin lol
mrbisto: Getting back to track swapping...
mrbisto: You guys should consider that...
mrbisto: OR
mrbisto: take someone elses work and master it.
mrbisto: Grab a couple bargain CDs from the store.....
skip_491: that sounds like a great idea chris
mrbisto: and re-master some old tunes
mpfcoh: there's a lot of raw material out there on unsigned band websites....
acousticalweaponsdivision: yeah sounds like a good idea
mrbisto: Thats a good idea also mpfcoh
mpfcoh: might find some new collaborators that way too
mrbisto: So that's the 5 points..... I wanted covered.
mrbisto: We gave them a good airing.
skip_491: sounds great
mixindown: guys, gotta go.
mixindown: its that time again.
mrbisto: So is there anything you guys need covering?
mpfcoh: see ya md
skip_491: have a good weekend mix
mrbisto: mixin, why noit open your own curry house?
mixindown: no fun in that is there.
x016178: Yes, Chris, I'm curious about midi during performance.
mixindown: will catcha all in the week.
skip_491: no all work
mrbisto: well I don't know, might work out cheaper
mrbisto: see ya
mixindown: see ya all.
x016178: ciao
jaminuk: bye mixindown
acousticalweaponsdivision: seeya
mpfcoh: cheers mix
mixindown has left the conference.
quinnersboy: all de best
mrbisto: Brent
mrbisto: what ya mean?
x016178: These bands like Keane, cold play.
x016178: What do they use as their sequencer?
x016178: During a performance. Do they use cubase and send the metronome to the drummer?
mrbisto: I don't know personally, but I woul use a hardware sequencer...
mrbisto: and yes
mrbisto: give him/her a click track (and feeds of the instruments)
x016178: Have any of you guys been able to trigger the playing of a sequence recorded on your synth from midi? For instance, you get a good groove on the groovebox and you want to trigger it at the right time while recording in cubase.
mrbisto: I don't trust PCs for live stuff... (I should really I guess)
x016178: Can't figure out how to do that.
quinnersboy: well ppl i is goin now
quinnersboy: have a good one
skip_491: i'm with you chris
jaminuk: cheers quinnersboy
mpfcoh: see ya q
skip_491: take care quinner
mrbisto: cheers
jaminuk: there are a lot of people going out and gigging with laptops running things like Ableton Live
quinnersboy has left the conference.
skip_491: i've had trouble doin that myslef
x016178: What is the advantage of Ableton vs. Cubase?
skip_491: not with midi but with digital
mrbisto: Brent
mrbisto: you want to ask advantages of hardware vs PC maybe
mrbisto: for live anyway
mpfcoh: x0: goot beatmatching in Live
jaminuk: ableton is very good for real time manipulation such as changing arrangements on the fly during a performance
jaminuk: although sx3 now offers some of these features
jaminuk: yes, good beat matching in ableton too
mpfcoh: Live is great for auditioning Wavs, beatmatched in real time to whatever sequence you're running
mpfcoh: that's a lot more tricky in Cubase
x016178: So if the guitarist goes off with a solo one measure to long, what happens then?
jaminuk: you can instantly change the arrrangement
mpfcoh: or shoot the guitarist...
jaminuk: but of course you could just make the guitarist look a plank
x016178: You have to have someone tracking this manually then yeah?
mrbisto: lol
skip_491: lol
mrbisto: or have the guitarist step on a button to hit the next marker.. for themself
jaminuk: well someone would need to operate it if you planned on a completely freeform performance
mrbisto: are you planning on this yourself brent?
x016178: Have you been able to record system mid information like -play-?
acousticalweaponsdivision: time for me to go
acousticalweaponsdivision: bye all
mrbisto: see ya
acousticalweaponsdivision has left the conference.
skip_491: bye ac
x016178: Yes, that's in the roadmap...next year maybe.
mrbisto: I see...
mrbisto: well yes you need to research the best software solution for YUR needs..
mrbisto: or hardware
mrbisto: Well guys, it's time to wrap this show up for another week.
mpfcoh: good workshop that
skip_491: ok chris
mpfcoh: thanks guys
hoaxwagon: entertaining as always everybody, Thanx Ben and Chris, until next week
x016178: Good night all!
x016178 has left the conference.
skip_491: nite x
mpfcoh: g'nite folks
skip_491: i'm outta here too have a great weekend all
skip_491: good nite gracie
skip_491: hehehehehe
mpfcoh has left the conference.
mrbisto: grazie
skip_491: gracie
skip_491: allen ahh comedian use to say that every week
skip_491: on a nite show here
hoaxwagon has left the conference.
skip_491: nite all
skip_491 has left the conference.
reynola31: bye all
reynola31 has left the conference.
mrbisto has left the conference.
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_________________
It's all in the ears. - Learn the concepts not the software.
Audio Courses is a way into the music business for you
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Mon May 09, 2005 5:32 am |
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