AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2014
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| Live Workshop - 290505 |
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mixindown: yo8
instinct27651982: sup everybody
mixindown: you?
mrbisto: What's new?
chemirastudio: You guys at the books??
mixindown: whats new? M-powered. lol
mrbisto: nice..
jaminuk: brb
mrbisto: or is it?
mixindown: Now thats another question.
chemirastudio: M-powered?
mixindown: Pro tools new sweetheart
chemirastudio: OH, I'm not savy on that
mixindown: Works with some non digidesign hardware.
acousticalweaponsdivision: me neither
mixindown: Not long out, around a few weeks or so.
jaminuk: back
chemirastudio: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProToolsMPowered-main.html
chemirastudio: Just a training aid
jaminuk: theres rumours that you can run M-Powered on a Delta 1010 using different drivers - if this is true then it is a cheap10i/o if you can pick up a delta s/h
mixindown: The other cards are not that expensive though Jaminuk
mixindown: I mean the M Audio ones that work with it (192)
jaminuk: no, not at all but you can pick up a delta 1010 s/h for about Ģ200 which would give you 10ins and 10outs on 1/4" jacks which is even better than the Digi002R
mixindown: Yeah, gotcha
jaminuk: however whether this will work with the release version i dunno - apparently 1010LT will work with it
mixindown: So the M Audio ASIO drivers may work with it?
jaminuk: apparently - well the Delta is a M-Audio card originally but with delta drivers it won't work - however people who have beta tested PT MP claim that by installing a specific driver (can't remember which right now - think it may even have been audiophile) it will work
mixindown: Well, theres more scope (as you say) with the 1010 card though they have some firewire boxes that run with it as well (don't know the spec though)
jaminuk: its all exciting stuff - was kind of suprised Digidesign have taken this route but i guess it makes business sense
mixindown: Well, they still haven't opened it up enough so they still have the upper hand.
mixindown: Though I am thinking of taking the dive.
jaminuk: what sequencer do you use right now?
mixindown: I have cubase 5 (which as you know is very old)
mixindown: So I will be looking for something a little better to add effect to the tracks I'm recording (Mackie HDR 24/96)
jaminuk: you ever consider SX or Sonar?
mrbisto: I was about to say something similar
mixindown: Yeah, I was looking at SX. though I like this idea that Pro Tools is solid. A lot of people seem to keep on about this.
mixindown: I would rather lose features and have a solid system you know.
jaminuk: well yes it is but i use Pro Tools a few times a week on a Carillon PC with a Digi 002 control surface and it can and does stumble - in fact it crashed on Fri at the start of a session!!
mrbisto: I bet bens system is "solid" eh ben?
jaminuk: ha yes my home setup is pretty stable
mixindown: So, in your opinion, is it more down to PC vs Mac?
mrbisto: Computer stability huh hmm
mixindown: for stability?
chemirastudio: you mean money?
mixindown: lol
jaminuk: it depends - do you anticipate on needing to take your work between different studios?
mixindown: Yes
mixindown: So pro tools fits that bill
jaminuk: in that case I'd say that maybe PT is the best
jaminuk: purely down to it being used in a lot of different studios
mixindown: Yeah, I hear you. Im also looking at the 002 rack.
mixindown: Ah, a question.
jaminuk: 002 rack is a good bit of kit - also has ASIO drivers so can be used in Cubase/Sonar etc
mixindown: Audio quality question for you guys.
chemirastudio: http://www.digidesign.com/products/digi002rack/
mixindown: Is there any difference in the audio quality when using Firewire vs USB2
jaminuk: no
mixindown: Thats a nice answer
jaminuk: quality is decided by preamps and AD/DA converson
mrbisto: and ONLY that
mrbisto: once digital..
jaminuk: usb, firewire etc are just 'protocols' for moving the same data around
chemirastudio: 101010101010101010101010101is still1010101010101010101010101
mrbisto: itās all a bunch of ons an doff under the hood
jaminuk: exactly that
mixindown: That clears things up nicely for me, very clear answers. It was the AD/DA converter part.
jaminuk: the preamps on the Digi 002R are quite good - focusrite possibly?
mixindown: Yes they are focusrite
jaminuk: yeah, they're pretty decent mic preamps
mixindown: 4 of them
jaminuk: also
jaminuk: with the 002(r)
jaminuk: there is a ADAT optical I/O which can carry another 8i/o
chemirastudio: What are the best AD/DA's in semi pro gear?
chemirastudio: 2 channels
jaminuk: its more to do with the algorithims/hardware
jaminuk: different converters will yield different results
mixindown: tell more
mrbisto: big old subject you might be heading into here...
mrbisto: is rico in the house?
mixindown: do some skating
jaminuk: ha yes - very big but briefly
jaminuk: the ad/da converters job is to convert an analogue signal (electrical) into a mathematical signal (binary)
jaminuk: depending on sample rate and bit depth, there are so many 'snapshots' and available depth per second
jaminuk: better ad/da converters will usually exhibit more reliable timing
jaminuk: so for instance
jaminuk: at 44.1kHz
jaminuk: there are 44,100 snapshots taken
chemirastudio: Does a timing master clock improve this
jaminuk: this depends on setup - in a digital environment with digital desk, digital outboard etc then yes a good quality master clock can certianly tighten things up throughout the system
mixindown: As in wordclock?
chemirastudio: yes
jaminuk: however, if you were just running a Digi 002 going into a PC it probably woulddn't be worth it
chemirastudio: wordclock
jaminuk: yes wordclock can be used
jaminuk: depends on system and hardware though
jaminuk: it is advantageous to have all digital gear tied into a good quality master clock
jaminuk: however these days a lot of systems like 002 for example have pretty good converters
jaminuk: certainly more than enough for semi-pro use
jaminuk: going back to the ADAT socket
jaminuk: this means you can very cheaply double the i/o capabilites of the unit with something like this (at the bottom range of the market):
jaminuk: http://www.behringer.com/ADA8000/index.cfm?lang=ENG
jaminuk: so you have 16 simultaneous i/o
mixindown: kool
jaminuk: obviosly for more cash you can get better units;
jaminuk: http://www.focusrite.com/products/platinum/octopre/
jaminuk: for instance
jaminuk: very affordable and modular ways of expanding setup
mrbisto: Good stuff
mixindown: thanks guys
mrbisto: I wanted to get some feedback on how the revision is coming along?
mrbisto: So how is going, everyone begun?
mrbisto: The mocks have been completed?
acousticalweaponsdivision: going ok so far
mixindown: yep
chemirastudio: revision oh review
hoaxwagon: ok here
chemirastudio: MT done and then I lost the RT in an e-mail attempt
mrbisto: Did you all crack on with the mocks?
mixindown: yes
acousticalweaponsdivision: yes
chemirastudio: yes
mrbisto: Exam conditions?
hoaxwagon: yes
mixindown: yes
mrbisto: impressed
acousticalweaponsdivision: indeedy
instinct27651982 has left the conference.
mrbisto: how'd you find it?
chemirastudio: all with ticking clock
mixindown: I was suppri
mixindown: I was supprized at the answers
mrbisto: pleasantly?
mrbisto: ahh .. they came to you?
mixindown: Well, I could have done better
mixindown: Understanding some of the questions, misreading one or two, could have kicked myself.
chemirastudio: c) In which phase(s) of the ADSR envelope might you place the loop
in a sample? (2 marks)
mrbisto: in a way that more revision would sort out?
chemirastudio: I choked on that
mixindown: I'm head down and full steam ahead. RT & MT
mrbisto: you did?.. you understand what ADSR is?
chemirastudio: yep
mrbisto: how come you stumbled?
chemirastudio: I did it at 3:00AM
jaminuk: oooh
chemirastudio: this morning
mrbisto: hehe
mrbisto: that wouldn't help
jaminuk: not an ADSR friendly time of day
chemirastudio: not too hehe I was Dazed and confused
mrbisto: certainly would be lacking attach at that time of the day..
mixindown: brb
mrbisto: and would be some brain decay too I imagine
chemirastudio: too much of not enough
mrbisto: There are other forms of release to be had in the small hours
jaminuk: !!!!!!!!
chemirastudio: Ha
mrbisto: ben you wanna cover this ADSR looping conundrum?
jaminuk: sure thing
mrbisto: ta
jaminuk: lets take a violin for instance
jaminuk: the attack will usually be the short increase in volume to maximum volume
jaminuk: the decay will be the decrease in volume to the sustain volume
jaminuk: the sustain will be an even volume
jaminuk: the release will be a decrease in volume
jaminuk: obvioulsy with a loop, aside from zero crossing points, a regular volume is important
jaminuk: setting the loop in the A, D or R in this instance would create a loop with a fluctuating volume
jaminuk: however, setting the loop in the S region will loop a section of CONSTANT volume
mixindown: back
chemirastudio: yep brain was not connected
jaminuk: for instance look at this graph
jaminuk: http://kulturinformatik.uni-lueneburg.de/veranst/dig_medientechnik/images/ADSR-Hkurve.gif
chemirastudio: good one
jaminuk: here it is clear visually that the sustain 'portion' is the one you would want to loop
jaminuk: i find with ADSR it helps to visualise the envelope
jaminuk: is that clear with all?
chemirastudio: yes thanks and sorry
mixindown: yes
jaminuk: no need for sorry!
chemirastudio: oh yes there is
mrbisto: exactly, easy.
jaminuk: 3:00am is a tough time to sit an exam
mrbisto: especially since it is supposed to take 3 hours...
mrbisto: you didn't sleep?
chemirastudio: I think I slept during the exam
jaminuk: lol
chemirastudio: best time to catch up on sleep
mrbisto: hehe
mrbisto: or tut tut
chemirastudio: both
chemirastudio: I'm reading my answers and they are funny, well scary actually
mrbisto: You know there are many more mock exams in the download sections guys...
chemirastudio: b) How might you soften the start of a drum sample (single hit)? (2
marks)
By allowing down the attack time the drum hip
mrbisto: If you have not yet found them would be a good dia to fish them out.
mixindown: will do
mixindown: The bird question threw me
hoaxwagon: lol
jaminuk: chemira - in this case you could change the attack section of the ADSR envelope
mixindown: rifle mic
chemirastudio: Spell check asked me to first choose a language
chemirastudio: yes
chemirastudio: slow down the attack
jaminuk: yes, drum sounds usually have an instant attack
chemirastudio: so the transient is reduced,
jaminuk: to add some attack 'time' would mean you were slowly 'fading in' the drum
jaminuk: hence 'softening' the start
chemirastudio: gottcha
mrbisto: I have to make a get away from here soon guys, but ben will be staying to take you through some stuff.
mrbisto: We have internet "outage" complications in milan hence Im in a cafe..
mixindown: Not more bloody veal? lol
jaminuk: haha
mrbisto: hehe yum
mixindown: won't be any cows left now Mrbisto
mrbisto: Ben will take you through whatever...
chemirastudio: Your portable or running?
hoaxwagon: ok Chris see ya
mrbisto: Main thing is to use this week as effectively as possible (obviously)
mrbisto: And you should contact eiher ben or myself if you have issues..
mrbisto: Don't leave it too late
mixindown: will do
mrbisto: OK all have fun.. see you next week if not before..
chemirastudio: later Chris
jaminuk: cheers chris
mrbisto has left the conference.
mixindown: later
jaminuk: so is everybody reasonably confident ahead of the exams
jaminuk: ?
chemirastudio: jaminuk, are the Exams like the mock exams?
jaminuk: how do you mean?
chemirastudio: 15 multi part questions
acousticalweaponsdivision: reasonably confident
chemirastudio: or sections
jaminuk: yes, very similiar
jaminuk: i can't speak confidently for RT
jaminuk: but for MT the structure is pretty mich the same year in year out
jaminuk: i imagine the same for RT
chemirastudio: OK I feel pretty confident about Ideas but not facts and figures
chemirastudio: SCSI 7 Firewire 63, damn is it
jaminuk: on the whole a grasp of the concepts is most important thing
mixindown: or 15 on a bigger bus,
jaminuk: but yes occasionally figures are important for some questions
chemirastudio: yes 15 is 63 right?
jaminuk: you talking SCSI or firewire?
chemirastudio: fire wire
chemirastudio: still sleeping
jaminuk: ha
jaminuk: standard firewire will support 63 devices
chemirastudio: 63
chemirastudio: yippee
chemirastudio: oopps
jaminuk: this is dependent usually on cable length etc
acousticalweaponsdivision: actually, i have a question about one of the MT mock questions
jaminuk: fire away
acousticalweaponsdivision: it was the question where it asks which are controller messages
jaminuk: hold on let me see if i can find it
mixindown: question 8
acousticalweaponsdivision: thats the one
jaminuk: don't have your mock in front of me - give me 20 secs
chemirastudio: 8. Which of the following are MIDI Control Change messages?
a) Velocity (1 mark)
b) Aftertouch (1 mark)
c) Pitch Bend (1 mark)
d) Program Change (1 mark)
MIDI control messages are specific to the channel, these will affect all channels therefore none of the above are MIDI Control change messages.
chemirastudio: opps answer too sorry
acousticalweaponsdivision: thats pretty much what i said
mixindown: but I think the man is right
chemirastudio: hopefully I was close
acousticalweaponsdivision: they are all channel messages
acousticalweaponsdivision: but not control change messages
chemirastudio: right AWD, I hate MIDI
mixindown: don't tell me you dont like MSC chem. lol
acousticalweaponsdivision: its not one of my stronger points either
chemirastudio: I'm still bleeding at the thought of anything MIDI
mixindown: nor mine
mixindown: I think the only way to be confident with midi is to use it
jaminuk: absolutely
jaminuk: MIDI is a tricky section
chemirastudio: I like lights and flashy stuff it was my keyboard controller that has given me grief
acousticalweaponsdivision: i was amazed i remembered the answer to the one about the DIN plug
chemirastudio: I think I'll make a chart for MIDI
chemirastudio: put it on a dart board
mixindown: Hey the DIN question, there is a lead that will do it you know. Both jobs!
mixindown: its at Maplins
jaminuk: good strting point for a MIDI chart may be here;
jaminuk: http://www.midi.org/about-midi/table1.shtml
chemirastudio: DIN plug, 5 pin
mixindown: yes
chemirastudio: Ok gotcha
jaminuk: are you all good on synthesis?
acousticalweaponsdivision: just about i think
mixindown: Um.... ok
chemirastudio: I think so
hoaxwagon: so so
acousticalweaponsdivision: few terms i am still reading up on but mostly ok
chemirastudio: It's all FM to me
jaminuk: lol
chemirastudio: Lame.... can I retract my last statement?
mixindown: lol
jaminuk: too late - it's embedded in stone now......
mixindown: Just sampled it chem.
acousticalweaponsdivision: would make a good epitaph actually
acousticalweaponsdivision: hehe
chemirastudio: aw man known for stupid phrases would be a better one
jaminuk: i liked spike milligans one
jaminuk: ' i told you i was ill '
chemirastudio: ha
acousticalweaponsdivision: yeah thats a spot on epitaph
mixindown: Synthesis jaminuk, VCF, find this one hard to visualize
jaminuk: how do you mean
jaminuk: the controls such as resonance, cutoff etc?
jaminuk: LPF, HPF etc
mixindown: the filter itself
mixindown: Like you just showed us an ADSR
jaminuk: ah i see
jaminuk: ok let me see i can grab a good image to illustrate
mixindown: k
chemirastudio: Voltage controlled filter..... yummy... with visual aids
jaminuk: ok firstly here are different filter types
jaminuk: http://www.networksciences.com/images/NS_filter_types_jpg.jpg
jaminuk: most commonly used in synthesis are Low Pass, High Pass and Band Pass
jaminuk: ok another pic
jaminuk: http://www.iaekm.org/images/0301_fe_2_b.jpg
jaminuk: so lets say you use a lowpass filter
jaminuk: with a lowpass obviously it 'lets through' low freqs
jaminuk: and rejects high freq
jaminuk: the point where it starts rejecting is the 'cutoff'
jaminuk: usually expressed in (k)Hz
jaminuk: as shown here;
jaminuk: http://www.sfu.ca/~gotfrit/courses/247_2001/247_images/lo_pass_hi_q.gif
jaminuk: now in that last picture, the 'hump' you see near the cutoff freq
jaminuk: this 'hump' is determined by the resonance control
beatworld_productions has left the conference.
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jaminuk: a higher resonance setting will make this 'hump' larger
jaminuk: meaning a small band of freqs will in fact be amplified
jaminuk: which in turn can be perilous for your speakers!
mixindown: can I come in here.
jaminuk: please do
mixindown: Is it the EG that gives the VCF its shape?
jaminuk: not really, the EG generates the ADSR envelope of the signal
jaminuk: which is mostly concerned with volume and time
mixindown: so what shape is the VCF?
jaminuk: the VCF deals with the freqs only, not time or volume (although res can increase volume)
jaminuk: the VCF is usually either low-pass, high-pass or band-pass and is usually switchable
jaminuk: this gives the basic shape
jaminuk: then the cutoff determines the 'size' of the shape
mixindown: when you say it is either LP etc, how do you set it to be say LPF
jaminuk: with synths there is often a control/switch in the VCF section that is labelled something like 'hpf/lpf/bpf' this determines the shape
jaminuk: obviously this varies in wording between different pieces of hardware and soft synths et
mixindown: Ah...great.
jaminuk: but it is the same principle
jaminuk: just to make it slightly more confusing
mixindown: that's better, No.........
jaminuk: there are 2 different conventions for wording
jaminuk: a low-pass is also called a high-cut (i.e. LPF = HCF)
chemirastudio: low pass lets lows pass
jaminuk: and a high pass filter is also called a low cut filter (i.e. HPF=LCF)
jaminuk: so you sometimes may see one convention or the other
jaminuk: i tend to preffer the xPF convention rather than the xCF
jaminuk: incidentally these filters are often used in production circles for different techniques
jaminuk: for instance
jaminuk: BPF (band pass) are great for emulating music/speech coming from a radio or telephone etc
jaminuk: due to the limited bandwidth
jaminuk: a LPF with a lowish cutoff point is good at creating the 'music coming from next door' effect, due to its attenuation of all but the lowest freqs
jaminuk: etc
jaminuk: common in sound design for films, tv, music videos etc
jaminuk: the LPF filter with the cutoff sweeped is very common in dance music, especially french house and the self explantory 'filtered house'
chemirastudio: Band pass =Telephone sound, Low pass= other side of wall What is the high pass example?
chemirastudio: used in audio?
chemirastudio: Or would high pass be for TV
jaminuk: high pass basically loses the low freq content so is not a very common example in real world terms - it is used sometimes in music though to create 'breaks' or drop-outs
jaminuk: TV would be nearer band pass again
chemirastudio: OK
jaminuk: you sometimes hear it in dance or pop
jaminuk: a song will be chugging along
jaminuk: then there will be a break where all the low end disappears for a few bars
jaminuk: and then the filter turns off and the tune kicks in again
jaminuk: also
jaminuk: it can be a useful tool for people creating sample based music
jaminuk: say you have a loop of a record that you want to use in a song
jaminuk: but you want to add your own drums and bass
jaminuk: a HPF can be used to filter out the low-freq content allowing you to add your own LF content such as kick drum, bass etc
jaminuk: i like to think of filters as a way of 'sculpting' the sound
mixindown: so it kinda creates a space for you to fill?
jaminuk: yes in the above instance thats exactly what it does
jaminuk: also
jaminuk: not in a synthesis sphere mind
jaminuk: HPF filters are used in mastering
jaminuk: and I also tend to use them personally a lot in mixing down
jaminuk: if i'm mixing a track or a jingle or whatever
jaminuk: i tend to use HPF filters on most tracks that have no real LF content
jaminuk: so things like vocals, electric/acoustic guitars etc
jaminuk: i might set the HPF with a cutoff of anywhere between 80-200Hz
jaminuk: this clears out all the unwanted freqs
jaminuk: and makes more 'room' for signals that have a low end content
jaminuk: equally a LPF may be used to (crudely) reduce hiss on a poor recording
jaminuk: with a high cutoff of around 10kHz+
mixindown: So would you EQ the low end out of an acoustic guitar before you recorded in?
jaminuk: personally i would record in 'neutral' and the sculpt the sound afterwards in the mixdown stage
jaminuk: just for the added control
jaminuk: acoustic guitars are great examples of instruments that can benefit from using a HPF
jaminuk: there are often 'boomy' overtones that can hog space in a mix
chemirastudio: cut off at what Hz
chemirastudio: and slope
jaminuk: depends in every circumstance but i would usually start at 100Hz and then sweep upwards to find the sweet spot
jaminuk: slope depends
chemirastudio: OK
jaminuk: a more musical sound is a mild slope
jaminuk: more clinical would require more dB/oct slope
jaminuk: a lot of modern pop music has ac guitars that are extremely glassy in sound
jaminuk: in fact a lot of the time you can hear as much plectrum/percussiveness as you can notes
chemirastudio: pick noise
jaminuk: absolutely
jaminuk: this is often intentional
mixindown: its a great sound done well
chemirastudio: clack clack without body
jaminuk: the gtr is mixed to sound more like a percussive instrument than a melodic one
jaminuk: absolutely chemira
jaminuk: sometimes these gtrs are filtered with cutoffs up around 1kHz or higher!
jaminuk: and compressed to within an inch of their life
jaminuk: if you have any acoustic guitar recordings it is fun to try some of these techniques
jaminuk: acoustic guitars can be very difficult to fit in a mix without EQ
mixindown: will do
jaminuk: even after this course has finished
jaminuk: still keep your ears as sharp as you can
jaminuk: i find that i reserve a bit of time everyday
chemirastudio: OK on ac guitars for a solo guitar do left and right EQ filters match or are they different?
jaminuk: to listen to music JUST for the production
jaminuk: chemira
chemirastudio: left and right EQ
jaminuk: if the signal is mono/joint mono then they should match
jaminuk: if it is true stereo (i.e. 2 mics or DI + mic) then you can mix and match
jaminuk: however these are rules of thumb and you will hear these rules broken all the time!
jaminuk: what is great fun if you have access to guitar/guitarist
jaminuk: is to pick a few songs that hav different ac guitar sounds
jaminuk: and then try to emulate the sounds using mic placement, EQ, reverb and compression
jaminuk: you will learn so much from this 'emulation' practice
chemirastudio: Mic choice or type could be the sound.
mixindown: that's how I learned to put drums together in a sequencer,
jaminuk: oh absolutely, but you can try with the equipment you have
jaminuk: obviously a Neumann U87 in a soundtreated booth will be hard to emulate in your bathroom with a Shure SM57
jaminuk: but the challenge of not having expensive mics/rooms etc
jaminuk: can help you get the most out of your room and mic
jaminuk: there is also this plugin!
jaminuk: http://www.antarestech.com/products/amm.html
jaminuk: cheating but interesting!
chemirastudio: I used top have the hardware combo unit with autio tune
chemirastudio: does change the sound in many ways
jaminuk: how did you find it?
chemirastudio: I like my software version of auto tune
chemirastudio: The Mic modeller is a minimal version without updates
jaminuk: yes the soft version of autotune is great - on jingles/IDs etc it gets quite a lot of usage
chemirastudio: still a good bang for the buck
jaminuk: another prog thats good for urban/hip-hop/r'n'b vocals etc is this
jaminuk: http://www.synchroarts.com/products/vocalign/vocalign.asp
jaminuk: also great for film work - ADR (automatic dialogue replacement)
chemirastudio: price?
jaminuk: ooh dont know of the top of my head
jaminuk: what country you in?
chemirastudio: Canada
chemirastudio: until they kick me out
jaminuk: hmm, well over here in UK it is about Ģ250
jaminuk: haha
chemirastudio: Ok
jaminuk: i think in states similiar price in dollars $250
chemirastudio: OK
chemirastudio: not bad
jaminuk: you guys got funny dollars over there though right!?
jaminuk:
chemirastudio: yeah just not enough of em
jaminuk: ha
jaminuk: what part of Canada?
chemirastudio: Nova Scotia
chemirastudio: East coast
jaminuk: oooh, out in the sticks up there
chemirastudio: over more than up
jaminuk: true!
jaminuk: someone i know recently went to novia scotia and the pics he brought back were incredible
chemirastudio: sticks very true yeah its scenic but slow
jaminuk: nothing wrong with a slow pace of life though right?
chemirastudio: let me think on that
mixindown: Hey guys, gotta go. Great workshop. Thanks for the info Ben. Have a good week all.
jaminuk: ha
jaminuk: cheers
acousticalweaponsdivision: bye mixindown
chemirastudio: later crew
chemirastudio: mix
jaminuk: ok we should wrap this up now - any problems email myself or chris during the week
chemirastudio: AWD
hoaxwagon: have a good one you all and until next time
mixindown has left the conference.
chemirastudio: jaminuk hoax
chemirastudio: CU
hoaxwagon has left the conference.
chemirastudio has left the conference.
acousticalweaponsdivision: seeya
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Mon May 30, 2005 12:29 pm |
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