AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2014
|
| Live Workshop - 110905 |
 |
|
audiocoursesc has joined the conference.
Stephen Rodriguez has joined the conference.
thx1138-Alex has joined the conference.
rbro100 has joined the conference.
Kristian Eliasson has joined the conference.
Rachelh-Rachel has joined the conference.
jaminuk has joined the conference.
Stephen Rodriguez: hola amigos!
Stephen Rodriguez: como estas?
thx1138-Alex: hello!
rbro100: Hi all
Me: Ciao tutti
Rachelh-Rachel: hi all
Kristian Eliasson: Hi everybody!
jaminuk: hi all
Me:
Me: Welcome back to Rachel, who is taking the DA module.
Rachelh-Rachel: nice to be back
Me: We have another 4 currnetly absent, but hopefullly they will show a little later.
Me: There could be some detention on the cards ...
thx1138-Alex: hehe stay behind after school
Me: exactly..
Stephen Rodriguez: lol
Me: I was busy today with the cricket ...
Stephen Rodriguez: cricket?
Me: aha...
jaminuk: quaint english sport
Stephen Rodriguez: Sorry i'm from the states
Me: It is yet another game that was invented in England and exported to many countries..
rbro100: mind numbingly boring english sport
jaminuk: even slower than NFL! games take days....
Stephen Rodriguez: I see
Stephen Rodriguez: I don't NFL I hear ya
Kristian Eliasson: Lot of cricket freaks here in Barbados
thx1138-Alex: haha i'm with you rbro100
thx1138-Alex: been busy not watching it
rbro100: takes too long!!! 30 mins and nobody hits anything
Stephen Rodriguez: what happens in the mean time?
jaminuk: people try to hit things...
Stephen Rodriguez: like?
rbro100: Nothing!!! eat cucumber sandwiches and drink tea
jaminuk: red balls (!)
Stephen Rodriguez: oh okay
Stephen Rodriguez: any website I can go to?
jaminuk: http://www.cricinfo.com/
Me: BBC
Me: oh well done Ben
Stephen Rodriguez: thank you]
Stephen Rodriguez: this sounds interesting
Me: A game of wit
Me: Complex rules
Stephen Rodriguez: col
Stephen Rodriguez: cool*
jaminuk: silly names for positions too
rbro100: White fluffy jumpers
Me: rbro you've not seen it for a while have you ?
jaminuk: they wear a lot of spandex these days
Me:
rbro100: Last time I watch scotland were playing with a big white X on their jumpers
Stephen Rodriguez: gross
Me: Spinal Tap style
jaminuk: lol
rbro100: The sounth african said it made a nice target
jaminuk: haha
Me: They have a box for protection too..
thx1138-Alex: but with no exploding drummer
Stephen Rodriguez: I have a recording question
Me: What mic do they use in the stumps?
Stephen Rodriguez: stumps?
rbro100: The aim of the game
Stephen Rodriguez: ahh
Me: Yes Cricket stumps, three small poles that the player has to defend..
rbro100: Knock them over
Stephen Rodriguez: oh okay
Stephen Rodriguez: they use a mic?
Stephen Rodriguez: yeah what kind
Me: They microphones in them now.
Me: So the third umpire can detect is the bat was hit with a noticable transient in the waveform
Stephen Rodriguez: oh cool
Stephen Rodriguez: I've got to check out a game sometime
Stephen Rodriguez: sounds like fn
Stephen Rodriguez: fun*
Me: They display the waveform for the public, right on the screen.. hehe anyway go ahead.
k has joined the conference.
Andrew Barber has joined the conference.
k: hi
Stephen Rodriguez: has anybody ever isolated the left and right channel in a mix and noticed the difference in channels?
Stephen Rodriguez: for example
Stephen Rodriguez: I was listening in my mixing program to a song that i've had for awhile and isolated the channels
Stephen Rodriguez: there were different affects for the same instrment or voice depending on the channel
Stephen Rodriguez: I just thought it was interesting
Stephen Rodriguez: is that what gives things that polished sound?
Me: It's a good point.. well.
Andrew Barber: Hello everyone
Stephen Rodriguez: hola senor
Me: The term "polished" sound can mean many many different things just as many different people.
Stephen Rodriguez: professional
Me: Stereo imaging is what you are referring to here...
Stephen Rodriguez: sounds good like somebody who knew what they were doing mixed it
Stephen Rodriguez: and mastered it
Stephen Rodriguez: yeah
Me: Stereo is nothing more than two separte audio signals played into two distinct monitors.
Me: Stereo is an illusion...
Me: an audio illusion...
Stephen Rodriguez: sounds mystical
Me: does it?... not meant to...
Me: it's meant to said clear as day lol
Stephen Rodriguez:
Me: Yes it is because we have two ears that stereo can exist
Me: It is because we hear things arriving at different times to different ears that we can get location information.
thx1138-Alex: i wonder what it would be called if we had three
thx1138-Alex: ears that is
k: ha
k: i wonder
Me: Freakish?
jaminuk: ha
rbro100: Same as depth in vision I guess
thx1138-Alex: hehe a somewhat random thought there
Me: But getting back to what you saw....
rbro100: Close one eye and it's hard to judge distance
Me: It is important to start looking at waveforms and related what you hear to what you see....
Me: This is a very fortunate position we are in that digital products allow us...
Stephen Rodriguez: I see
Me: Was never the case before with analogue, though we used a scope we could never really take a snapshot and analyise it, as we can now.
Me: But you mentioned if this contributed to a "polished" sound..
Stephen Rodriguez: yes...
Me: stereo imagine can certainly aid that i guess...
Stephen Rodriguez: like adding slight delay to the left track on the vocals and leavind the riht alone
Stephen Rodriguez: right*
Me: Yes that might be something you dig
Stephen Rodriguez: ahh okay
Stephen Rodriguez: thank you
Me: That's a common Hip-Hop and R&B trick
Stephen Rodriguez: I see
Me: I call that "thickening" the vocal..
Stephen Rodriguez: it was R& B now that I think about it
Me: The vocal will have more substance...
Stephen Rodriguez: not so much of that thing nasely sound
Me: BV in hip-hop for chorus sections display this type of processing...
Me: BV = backing vocals
Stephen Rodriguez: gotchya
Me: Some call this "doubling"
Me: "doubling" the vocals...
Me: It's actually interesting how this works.. with phase etc...
Me: The effect is useless if played back on a mono system.
Stephen Rodriguez: really?
Me: Which would mean one ought to be cautious of how much stereo imaging, or phase shifts to be correct, are used in a mix.. (if we have hopes of mainstream playback)
Stephen Rodriguez: is that why you don't always hear all the things on the radio versus a CD?
Me: Yes that is exactly why...
Stephen Rodriguez: oh i makes sense now
Me: Maybe Ben can progress this topic a little more....
jaminuk: sure thing
Me: with emphasise on phase
Me: ta
jaminuk: ok how clear are you all with the term 'phase'?
Stephen Rodriguez: semi clear I guess
k: not to clear
Rachelh-Rachel: clear
Kristian Eliasson: clear
rbro100: ok
thx1138-Alex: fairly clear
jaminuk: ok quickly for those who aren't too clear
Andrew Barber: semi-clear
jaminuk: imagine we put a microphone up next to a snare drum
Stephen Rodriguez: k
jaminuk: a snare drum has a skin/diaphragm
jaminuk: which is hit by the drummer
jaminuk: when the stick hits the snare the skin goes 'down'
jaminuk: if the mic was underneath the snare
jaminuk: then initially the mic would pick up a 'compression' of air
jaminuk: the skin obviously then goes back 'up'
jaminuk: and it repeats this up and down movement creating a sound
jaminuk: now if we were to look at the waveform from this drum in a digital audio editor we would see the waveform going above and below a line
jaminuk: for instance like this
jaminuk: http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/tutorials/shm/cos.JPG
jaminuk: this centre line is what we call DC
jaminuk: or sometimes '0'
jaminuk: if the waveform was 'on' the DC line we wouldn't hear anything - it is silence
jaminuk: so the speaker cone wouldn't move
jaminuk: now when we talk about phase issues you may hear of things like 'phasing' or 'cancellation'
jaminuk: lets imagine that we had our drum waveform recorded on our PC
jaminuk: and the waveform looked like the link I just posted
Stephen Rodriguez: is it a cosine wave versus a sine wave?
jaminuk: if we took a copy of the waveform and 'inverted' the phase what do you think it would look like compared to that link?
rbro100: upside down?
jaminuk: exactly
jaminuk: so we would have the 'inverse' of our original waveform
Stephen Rodriguez: so this is phase shift?
Stephen Rodriguez: i mean phase?
jaminuk: phase shift is referring to changing the phase of a signal by a number of degrees
jaminuk: what we are doing at the moment is just 'inverting' the phase
Stephen Rodriguez: I see
jaminuk: so what do you think would happen if we played our original waveform
jaminuk: and
jaminuk: the inverted waveform
jaminuk: simultaneously
jaminuk: ?
rbro100: cancel each other?
jaminuk: tres bien!
Stephen Rodriguez: real quick ladies and gentlemen I'm sorry I have an emergency appointment that just came up that I have to go to. My name will be on but I won't be present at my computer. Continue though I'm going to leave on the conference so I can review the information when I get back
rbro100: took german at school sorry
Stephen Rodriguez: adios
jaminuk: ok so is this 'cancellation' clear with you all?
k: yep
Kristian Eliasson: yes
rbro100: yes
Rachelh-Rachel: yep
thx1138-Alex: aye
jaminuk: now an important thing to note here is that this is just a theoretical example
jaminuk: if you were to send the original waveform to your left speaker and the inverted to the right and then sit down and play them the signal wouldn't disappear
jaminuk: why do you think that is?
Me: great point!
rbro100: you'll still hear both just one differently?
jaminuk: not exactly
jaminuk: lets think of this mathematically for a second
jaminuk: the reason that they would cancel each other out theoretically is that they would be of opposite phase and of EQUAL amplitude
jaminuk: so for instance when one signal was +10, the inverted signal would be -10
jaminuk: now, if these signals were played over a mono system (such as a transistor radio for example) we would get this cancellation, but if it was played in stereo across 2 speakers we wouldn't - why?
rbro100: Cause they're not coming out ame speaker?
rbro100: *same
jaminuk: yes they're not coming out of the speaker - however, they're coming out of the speakers at the same time, with equal amplitude and inverted phase so why aren't they cancelling
Kristian Eliasson: one speaker goes out when the other goes in..
Me:
jaminuk: there are several reasons for this
jaminuk: anyone?
Kristian Eliasson: maybe they travel diffferent distances
Kristian Eliasson: to you ears?
jaminuk: kristiane - good
Kristian Eliasson: Should be Kristian...hehe must change that
jaminuk: ha-sorry!
jaminuk: kristian - good!
jaminuk: it is very unlikely that both your ears are exactly the same distance from each speaker first off
jaminuk: also a slight difference in the capabilities of your hearing from one ear to the other will make this cancellation un achievable
jaminuk: add in to the equasion room acoustics, slight differences between loudspeaker efficiencies/performance etc and you will find that you will not achieve this theoretical 'silence'
jaminuk: however you will find that the sound will be very 'unstable' and lacking in any solidity of stereo imaging
jaminuk: as you all probably know this same effect can be achieved 'accidentally' by wiring your speakers out of phase
jaminuk: everything will sound very unstable and trying to mix will be impossible
jaminuk: o its very important to ensure your speakers/amp are wired correctly
jaminuk: !
jaminuk: before i wrap this up we could look at one practical example of phase cancellation used commercially
jaminuk: the vast majority of commercial records will have the vocals panned centre (i.e. equal amplitude in both L & R channels)
jaminuk: most other instruments (apart from maybe the kick drum, bass guitar and snare) will be panned at varying positions across the stereo panarama
jaminuk: so bearing this in mind
jaminuk: lets say we take a commercial track and invert the phase of one of the channels?
jaminuk: what will happen to the vocals?
Kristian Eliasson: it will be cancelled out
jaminuk: anyone?
jaminuk: kristian - excellent!
jaminuk: why will they be cancelled kris?
Kristian Eliasson: because its panned in the middle the same amount in left and right
Kristian Eliasson: when you invert the wave will be inverted
Kristian Eliasson: you will only hear the the things that were different from left and right from the beginning
jaminuk: A+ kris!
jaminuk: do you all understand this?
thx1138-Alex: hopefully
Rachelh-Rachel: yep
rbro100: Think so
k: think so
jaminuk: good stuff - if you've got wavelab, audition, CEP, Sound Forge etc
jaminuk: you can experiment with this kind of thing with commercial recordings
jaminuk: maybe try this in the week if you get time
jaminuk: load a stereo waveform of a commercial record
jaminuk: invert the phase of one channel
jaminuk: then bounce the file down to a mono version and play it
jaminuk: you should find the instruments panned central will disappear
jaminuk: you will hear all instruments panned off centre
jaminuk: AND stereo effects used on central panned signals such as vocals - this is good for listening to things like the stereo reverbs that are used on vocals
jaminuk: this method of phase cancellation is how 'karaoke' or 'voice removal' buttons work on certain hi-fi systems
jaminuk: and some software plugins
jaminuk: a overview of phase
jaminuk: from a physics point of view
jaminuk: can be viewed here on wiki;
jaminuk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29
jaminuk: chris anything you'd like to add?
Me: I think a practical based around this might be fitting for them this week ...
Me: rather than to open, maybe set some parameters with an audio file..
Me: As a way for them to describe the reverbs used on a couple vocals perhaps.. this descriptive stuff would benefit last weeks task also, which I felt was not really tackled fully.
jaminuk: well maybe this could be applied to the harley track?
Me: Perfect.. if you could add that as a practical task..
Me: Thanks for phase outline there Ben..
Me: I have nothing to add to that for now, we can re visit it if necessary in the future and look more closely at mics and distances...
Me: Moving on...
Me: So far the questions that were set, you all tackled in a suitable manner..
Me: Some industrious answers and quality in places too..
Me: The listening task though was NOT very good at all..
Me: I would say this means none of us listen hard enough, or more to the point have the vocabularly yet to be able to converse fluidly about a mix...
Me: would that be far?
Me: oops fair
rbro100: yes!
Kristian Eliasson: yes
thx1138-Alex: i guess so, i did mean to post some more about it
thx1138-Alex: heh thats my excuse anyway
Me: Thought so.. I think it can be hard initially because we have to get into a slightly different way of thinking...
jaminuk: need to start getting geeky!
Me: To be frank, if you like the track, this one or any other track in fact, is completely un-related.
k has joined the conference.
k: sorry got cut off
Me: Makes no difference what so ever when it comes to "work" if we dig the tune...
Me: So as Ben stated there, we must get "geeky"
Me: Most of what was written took the form of a record review, more than an actual description of the mix.. or the recording of the mix..
Me: As engineers /producers / sound engineers it is imperative we start listening differently.
Kristian Eliasson: I feel a lack of words. Is there a site where geeks are talking about mixes that you would recommend?
Me: Not really, lol a good idea though a "geek" dictionary...
Me: it does change depending on location...
Me: But it;s more about what "types" of things we need to listen for...
Me: Rather than things like "great guitar solo" - we'd be more interested in " slap back delay used on guitar"
Me: you know?
Kristian Eliasson: yes
jaminuk: need to remove the music from the equation to be basic about it
jaminuk: a good starting point is this
Me: "Background hiss very prominent around 2 mins 23 secs.. " ---- for example..
jaminuk: some songs are available that are 'demo' versions etc
jaminuk: it is quite good practice to listen to a 'demo' version of the song and then the finished version
jaminuk: musically they will be quite similiar usually but production wise they are miles apart (most of the time)
jaminuk: this is a good way of sharpening your ears to this kind of thing if you feel that you are struggling
Me: That makes sense.. so I would like to continue with this task for another week...
k: ho
k: sorry
k: didnt mean to type that
jaminuk: haha
Me: Your listening could lead to such things as knowing what type of guitar was used and what amp.
Me: Tis all in the ears
Me: Audio recognition
Me: Silence ... ha
Me: Scared them off
jaminuk: <tumbleweed>
Me: NObody wants to be geeky
jaminuk:
thx1138-Alex: haha
Me: Anyway using ben's idea of pahse invertion as a practical will force you into hearing stuff....
Me: Does everyone have a stereo editor for this type of task?
thx1138-Alex: yep
rbro100: Will sound studio work?
Kristian Eliasson: yes
k: ye
Me: rbro what is that?
Me: http://www.felttip.com/products/soundstudio/ is that it?
rbro100: yes
Me: Seems so...
Me: if you have issue you could post up in the forum and ask what everyone else is using... get each other talking a bit
k: how did the questions go
Me: But first glance it seems ok.
rbro100: will find out
Me: I had 4 RT and 1 DA in for questions... so some are late... (not good) what I did see so far is encouraging..
rbro100: if you invert the track as a whole it should give the same effect? or is this rubbish?
Me: if you do that you will not detect any differnce rbro
Me:
Me: all + will become - and all - will become + so no net differences...
rbro100: ok
Me: So how did you all find it this week with such things as times constraints?...
Me: Wouldbe good to chat about how you plan your study etc.. where you do it etc..
thx1138-Alex: i find it useful to set a target of a certain amount of questions per day
Me: yeah?
thx1138-Alex: and aim to have them all done by the friday
thx1138-Alex: this time my target was 10 every day
Me: keeps the weekend free for ya
thx1138-Alex: though i did about 15 so i could be lazy on thursday
thx1138-Alex: and friday i had the grand total of 2 questions to answer
thx1138-Alex: so i could be lazy on friday too
Me: cracking idea.
Me: more time for a couple beers
thx1138-Alex: haha plan your laziness
jaminuk: i like to timetable my laziness
Me: yeah?
jaminuk: yeah, 'tuesday - 10:00-12:00 - laze'
Kristian Eliasson: Well I have realised that a need a schedule for each course since I am doing three modules. Was a little chaotic in the beginning to now where to start.
Kristian Eliasson: but I still had time to for a couple of beers though...hehe
jaminuk: good work!
thx1138-Alex: planned laziness then you have the feeling that you achieved something just by vegetating in front of the tv
Me: Always good to hear that.
jaminuk: awd - i like your style
Kristian Eliasson: good idea Alex I will planned that in to!
thx1138-Alex: hehe i am the laziness guru
thx1138-Alex: groom your inner lazy git
k has left the conference.
Me: cool title
jaminuk: lol
Me: So what's everyone up to this week, anything exciting?
rbro100: Teaching kids about guitars and stuff
Me: what ya gonna teach, electric?
rbro100: stuff being every other aspect of music
Me: Music theory etc.. ?
rbro100: histroy of, where it's going, how to play C and not break a nail
Me: lol
rbro100: got a higher pupil starting sound engineering module next week (first time anyones opted for it)
Me: ooooer
Me: what course is this?
rbro100: the new higher still module (scotland) they have to record a band
rbro100: four times and each time listen and write hope to improve it
rbro100: *how
Me: ah sounds like fun
rbro100: should be, course was designed by pete stollery (don't know if you know him)
Me: not sure I do.. so you are "delivering" the syllabus so to speak..
rbro100: yeh, don't laugh (judging on my answers tonight) all you need to be is a page ahead in the book
Me: Well, you'll be more than a page ahead after this course
rbro100: pete's an electro-acoustic fanatic, his works pretty good
Me: And everyone else.. this week?
Me: Rachel still there?
Rachelh-Rachel: yep
thx1138-Alex: got some music to finish off this week
thx1138-Alex: if i get time
rbro100: are you writting or recording AWD?
thx1138-Alex: well main part of the writing i finished so mostly recording
rbro100: what kid of stuff?
rbro100: kind
thx1138-Alex: always good to come up with additional parts as i go though
thx1138-Alex: hmm kind of hard to describe
thx1138-Alex: slow and heavy atmospheric stuff
rbro100: sounds good you'll have to post some so I can hear
thx1138-Alex: think heavy metal meets ambient at about 10 bpm
jaminuk: sounds pretty unique
thx1138-Alex: loads of old stuff online actually
jaminuk: 10bpm! lol
jaminuk: slower than my nans pulse
rbro100: lol
Kristian Eliasson: haha good description. I heard some of it very unique!!!
thx1138-Alex: and a little new stuff too that hasnt been properly mixed yet
rbro100: where is it?
thx1138-Alex: www.mp3.com.au/uncertaintyprinciple
thx1138-Alex: check out the 'albums' Grand Unification Energy and Music Of The Spheres
thx1138-Alex: music of the spheres is my version of Kepler's Music Of The Spheres
thx1138-Alex: theres some other stuff on there that has dodgy sound quality
thx1138-Alex: i had a fixation with harsh noise ala Merzbow to begin with, hence the harshness of some of my earlier stuff
thx1138-Alex: its not everyones cup of tea as it were
rbro100: listening just now (tis good)
thx1138-Alex: and i'm not as miserable as i look in the picture of me on there
rbro100: Not judging
Me: OK people, time is time here so me and ben gotta split.. best of luck for the week..
thx1138-Alex: i dont have quite so much hair either
thx1138-Alex: time to go
rbro100: speak next time
rbro100: bye
Rachelh-Rachel: bye all
jaminuk: bye everyone
rbro100 has left the conference.
Me: bye bye all
thx1138-Alex: seeya everyone
Kristian Eliasson: bye everybody see you online during the week!
Rachelh-Rachel has left the conference.
jaminuk has left the conference.
thx1138-Alex has left the conference.
_________________
It's all in the ears. - Learn the concepts not the software.
Audio Courses is a way into the music business for you
|
Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:09 pm |
|
|
 
|
|
All times are GMT. The time now is Fri May 16, 2008 12:03 pm
|
|
|
|
| |
