AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2014
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| Live Workshop - 25.09.05 |
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thx1138-Alex has joined the conference.
jaminuk has joined the conference.
tobyh1000 has joined the conference.
Kristian Eliasson has joined the conference.
Andrew Barber has joined the conference.
Stephen Rodriguez has joined the conference.
rbro100 has joined the conference.
Me: Morning all..
rbro100: hi everyone
thx1138-Alex: hello!
Kristian Eliasson: Hi everybody!
tobyh1000: yo
jaminuk: hi all
Andrew Barber: Howdy
rbro100: Computer's actin up, might go on and off tonight!
Rachelh-Rachel has joined the conference.
Me: Thanks, but no thanks.
Rachelh-Rachel has left the conference.
Andrew Barber: me too
Me: what's with that? - can we fix it?
Rachelh-Rachel has joined the conference.
Me: What's up with peoples computers?
Me: It sounds worrying.
rbro100: don't know, the screen has vertical line sometimes when i'm onlin, have to restart
rbro100: technician at school will fix it tomorrow... hopefully
Me: oh good.. that's better and you andrew?
Andrew Barber: modem, again
Me: getting cut off should not exist on broadband... or is it an old dial up?
Andrew Barber: i think its an old account updated to broadband
rbro100: why not on broadband?
Me: well on old dial up, many providers would cut the signal after a pre-defined length of time, typically 2 hours...
Me: most broadbands now are designed to be always on..
jaminuk: brb
Me: so it strikes me as odd, that andrew gets cut off..
rbro100: whats BRB ben?
Me: anyway on to other stuff..
Me: BRB = be right back
rbro100: ok
Me: welcome to the online world
Me: LOL
rbro100: lol
rbro100: double dutch
jaminuk: ack
jaminuk: back even
Me: how was the week guys? I'm planning on listening to the classical edits tomorrow.
rbro100: good, editing was fun, uploading wasn't
Me: I thought we could dicuss the process and how it went.. what you found out and learnt about the task.
Me: rbro you like to start us off?
rbro100: ok...
rbro100: I started by deciding on my script....
rbro100: where I wanted music and voice...
rbro100: I then edited the music to the right time with good themes where there were no words
rbro100: ...
rbro100: Then recorded and edited the voice...
rbro100: then mixed.
rbro100: Then got really angry, as ben will confirm, when I couldn't upload!
Me: Sounds like you carried out some pre-production then, with the planning... ?
rbro100: Well...
rbro100: I originally wanted to add some modern instruments
rbro100: but.
rbro100: the pro-forma said we weren't allowed to so I had to replan
rbro100: good fun though
Me: Yes part of the difficulty would have been working to a strict brief
Me: It's often of more use to you as a learning tool to have limitations.
rbro100: I agree, focuses you more on the task
rbro100: rather than what you can add
Me: So then you got angry? - shouldn't let some technology phase you
rbro100: Couldn't upload, took 5 hours...
rbro100: eventually I had to send to my brother who uploaded it!!! Macs!!!
jaminuk: ha
Me: Well.. no comment (cough)
Me: lol
rbro100: cheers
Me: What you might want to look at is a free FTP client.. installed on your mac...
Me: To stream line the uploading, and remove your anger, call it anger managment software/ftp client
rbro100: I'll have a look for one later!
rbro100: OK
Me: Steve Jobs and his bloody MACs eh?
jaminuk: grrr
rbro100: yeh, and the woodwind teacher who told me I couldn't live without one
jaminuk: those woodwind teachers......
Me: Oh you should have seen that coming from a woody!
Andrew Barber: lol
rbro100: I'll beat him up with his piccolo
Kristian Eliasson: haha
Me: lol
Me: knock the wind out of him..
jaminuk: haha
rbro100: lol
Andrew Barber: lol
rbro100: take the wind from his sails?
jaminuk: ha
Me: Looking forward to hearing to edits anyway... anyone else like to share their experience regarding the edits?
Me: How did you get on Rachel?
Rachelh-Rachel: how did i know u were gona ask me
Rachelh-Rachel: The first thing I did was write my vocal, I then recorded it, then I compressed it then I chose the section of music that I wanted, and I made it work around the vocal -Adjusting the envelope and levels.
Rachelh-Rachel: Then I did some effects - some reverb on some of the vocal parts and some fading at the end. The hardest thing for me was to be original as I did the edit last semester, that is why I chose to pick the music last cos it was driving me mad as I kept on being inclined to do what I did the last time
Rachelh-Rachel: i was prepared
Me: Experience eh?
Rachelh-Rachel: lol
Me: So tell us more about making the music work around the vocal, that's an interesting way to go..
Rachelh-Rachel: i reduced the levels when i was speaking and raised the levels when there was periods of silence
Me: Ah.. so you did this in the wave editor, buy creating amplitude changes?
Rachelh-Rachel: yep
Rachelh-Rachel: envelope changes
Me: sure.. the old ADSR trick...
Rachelh-Rachel: yep
Rachelh-Rachel: i also adjusted the amplitude as u said
Me: were you pleased with the results? I recall last time your mic was shall we say, umm low-fi.
Rachelh-Rachel: and doubled on my vocal tot hicken it.........yep this time around i am happy with the vocal.... it is much better
Rachelh-Rachel: thicken
Me: Sounds good, anyone else use the ADSR trick?
Me: hmm
Me: anyone not know what ADSR is? - that might be a more suitable question.
Kristian Eliasson: well I did a lot of fader changes between the different music parts...
rbro100: attack, sustain, delay, release
rbro100: reorder it!!!
Me: lol
Me: Kristain, how did you do fader changes?
Kristian Eliasson: well when going over from one clip to another I was very care about fade in and fade out
rbro100: isn't zero crossing the best way to do that?
Me: to achieve what?
Kristian Eliasson: me?
Me: anyone..
rbro100: I thought the best way to cross fade two tracks was to find a place where they where both silent and cross? no?
Kristian Eliasson: to make the fadeover not recognizable
thx1138-Alex: zero crossing is to ensure a click free loop
rbro100: Just something I read as I was researching questions, prob wrong, sorry!
Me: sure, no don't apologise...
Me: Its great to get the input and get you discussing.
Kristian Eliasson: I was writing in the fader movements manually in cubase between the cuts...and I was surprised that you can actually do cuts in classical music without hearing it...
Me: Ah there we go.. sounds good care to expand that? I'm sure some guys have not done automation yet..
Andrew Barber: only found automation a few months ago, its top
Kristian Eliasson: well first I was trying to just cut different parts and glue them together
Kristian Eliasson: no good
Me: no?
Kristian Eliasson: Then I faded in and out between the cuts....they glued together as long as you are care ful with having the right tempo
Me: sounds good, and were you happy with results?
Kristian Eliasson: yeah with the music yes...
Me: and how did the vocal recording work out for you?
Kristian Eliasson: well I have decided how the music should go loud....little bit more silent...and then climax...hehe
Kristian Eliasson: but I think the came out pretty good...follows the music...
Kristian Eliasson: that was my intention anyway...
Me: good stuf..
Me: anyone else have interesting experiences with edits?
rbro100 has joined the conference.
rbro100: Bak again
Me: how about you toby?
Me: No toby?
tobyh1000: umm i thought the cledit was for RT only to be honest
Me: oh, you didn't do it?
tobyh1000: no i was going to, but after rereadin the workshop and checking the classroom i didn't think it was meant for me
tobyh1000: i can do it this week if i should?
Me: Generally practicals are for everyone... if we dicuss them here..
Me: I think you might learn a thing or two Toby, yeah.
tobyh1000: ok-i'll get in this week-sorry bout that
Me: No need for apologies, best to ask in future though, so you don't miss out..
tobyh1000: gotcha
Me: Anyone have any difficulties apart from the MAC one... ??
Me: software issues, vocals issues, music issues?
rbro100: first time recording voice (spoken) didn't have pop sheild
thx1138-Alex: heh i discovered that my mic makes a buzzing noise instead of recording anything
Me: lol
Me: you sure it is a mic?
jaminuk: lol
Andrew Barber: lol
thx1138-Alex: i had to use the little mic that came with my pc in the end
Me: hmmm
Me: little as in physical size or little as in you patronising the bad quality of it?
Me: lol
thx1138-Alex: little as in the size
Andrew Barber: have to buy my mum new tights 2day
Me: lol yeah?
rbro100: fair enough!!!
Me: Sounds a bit freaky my friend
Andrew Barber: lol
thx1138-Alex: i hope your talking pop shield sir
thx1138-Alex: hehe
Kristian Eliasson: haha
Me: I bet rach would have used her own eh rach?
Andrew Barber: well winters approching...
rbro100: haha
Me: yeah true, those wolly brown ones by any chance?
Andrew Barber: spot on
Rachelh-Rachel: i dont have any
Me: they are smashing for getting a seriously shite sound too..
Me: those lovely thickens..
Andrew Barber: my voice sounds shite anyway
Me: Don't have any rach, fair enough, nor me..
Me: Andrew yeah?
Andrew Barber: only on a friday
Me: a religious thing?
Andrew Barber: im gonna stop talkin now
rbro100: good lad andy!
Me: hehe
Me: so.. what subjects did the questions aid you in discovering? - anything new?
rbro100: Get the right mic I tried two and they both soundede different
Me: good one..
Me: get it corect at source
thx1138-Alex: didnt know too much about noise gates so it was interesting to find out about them
Me: hard to fix stuff in the mix is the old saying... all too often we can fall into the mistake of fixing it in the mix.
rbro100: record everything in the same night
Me: processing can help make a good tke sound great though.. with careful use..
Me: perhaps ben can take this up for us?
jaminuk: sure thing
rbro100: TKE?
Me: take
Me: sorry..
rbro100: no probs thought it was another abbrev.
jaminuk: most recordings you will hear on the radio will have been heavily processed and effected etc
jaminuk: the vocals in modern productions especially
jaminuk: there are a lot of tricks, tips etc that can help acheive a better vocal sound
jaminuk: we'll start off with the recording itself - as people have already mentioned pop shields (or moms tights) prevent 'plosives' making their way into the recording
jaminuk: you may also want to ensure that the vocalist stays a suitable distance from the mic when recording
jaminuk: if you are using a mic with a 'cardoid' polar pattern then you may be susceptible to the 'proximity effect'
jaminuk: anyone know what this is?
jaminuk: no?
Me: just to jump in, it is often known as "bass tip-up"
jaminuk: ok the proximity effect is the increase in bass that you get if the sound source is too near the mic
jaminuk: and this increase can be several dBs
jaminuk: so with a vocalist you can use this to your advantage
jaminuk: if the vocalist has a weak, 'thin' sounding voice you can get the singer close to the mic to exploit this phenomenon
Me: great point!
jaminuk: conversely if a vocal is sounding too 'bassy' or 'boomy' move the singer out 6-12inches from the mic
jaminuk: sticking with the low freqs, when recording vocals (for most genres at least) it is often a good idea to apply a HPF at around 80-100Hz
jaminuk: either on the desk or on the mic (some mics have this function built in)
jaminuk: any ideas why we would want to apply a High Pass Filter to a vocal recording?
rbro100: High pass filter boost freq. low freq?
rbro100: or is it the other way?
Kristian Eliasson: To get rid of frequencys from the room...
jaminuk: rbro - high pass only lets high freqs past - in this case 100Hz and higher
jaminuk: kris - not exactly
jaminuk: any other guesses?
thx1138-Alex: to filter out unwanted lows from the voice?
jaminuk: awd - we're getting closer!
jaminuk: ok...
Kristian Eliasson: to get rid of proximity effect
Me: I live in an aiport flight path.. there a clue.
Me: airport
jaminuk: ok the HPF will obviously filter out anything under 100Hz in this example
jaminuk: so firstly, this will further reduce 'plosives' from the vocalist
jaminuk: secondly it will prevent any vibration of the mic stand being picked up through the mic (this is very common esp if singer is tapping feet along to track)
jaminuk: thirdly it can reduce any 'rumble' that might be coming from cars, planes etc outside
jaminuk: if any of you have access to a HPF on a mic or desk it is worth listening to the difference it makes if you are, for instance, lightly tapping the mic stand
rbro100: what does the window width do?
jaminuk: window width?
rbro100: just tried it, got a window width gauge to alter (in samples)?
jaminuk: with a HPF/LPF you should only need to alter cutoff freq (in Hz) and steepness of the filter (expressed in dB/oct)
jaminuk: what software you using?
rbro100: sound studio
jaminuk: i'm not familiar with that - it should offer you a cutoff freq at some point
Me: Generally a HPF/LPF are what are known as shelving curves... that is to say they only decrease one side., with one cut-off.. and then reuce the signal by 6, 12, 18 or 24 db per octave.
Me: whereas a bandpass, passes a band of frequencies (or a window, perhaps?)...
jaminuk: looking online it looks like sound studio expresses the steepness of the filter with 'window width'
rbro100: yes it changes the graphs steepness
jaminuk: this is not a common method of labelling - it would usually be expressed in dB/oct
rbro100: so ame thing?
rbro100: same*
Me: ah.. so that would be as ben states the 6db or 12db per octave...
Me: i might say a very strange use of terminology.
jaminuk: yes, you would want the steepest curve/most number of dB per oct
rbro100: it's in Hz
rbro100: no it's not, just ignore me!
jaminuk: ha
jaminuk: ok lets move on to when we've got the audio into your computer/recorder
jaminuk: whose heard of vocal 'comping'?
rbro100: when you take the best bits
thx1138-Alex: best bits of multiple takes
jaminuk: yes, the best bits are taken and 'compiled' into a take
jaminuk: with modern recording technology we can 'comp' with precision that couldn't of been imagined 20 years ago
jaminuk: its not uncommon for pop records to have particular words 'comped'
jaminuk: i.e. one syllable from one take, another from another etc
jaminuk: using 'cycle' recording in a sequencer such as cubase, pro tools etc
jaminuk: you can record several takes of a passage and then have visual representations for you to work with
jaminuk: this method of comping is invaluable when working with pop and/or inconsistent vocalists
jaminuk: after comping has been performed we would move onto the more conventional processings tasks
jaminuk: the most common being Gating, Compression and EQ
jaminuk: so whats the practical advantage of gating a vocal take?
jaminuk: advantages i should say
Kristian Eliasson: get rid of noise'
thx1138-Alex: get rid of any bleed from other sound sources
rbro100: unwanted spill?
jaminuk: good stuff
jaminuk: so headphone spill for instance can be removed
jaminuk: incidentally if you listen to the track 'beautiful' by Christina Aguilera the headphone spill is clearly audible at the intro and outro
jaminuk: what do you have to be careful of when gating vocals?
rbro100: you don't put threshold to high?
Kristian Eliasson: setting the threshold to high
jaminuk: good - if the threshold is too high then you can miss the starts of words, suffer dropouts or even worse, miss quite phrases
jaminuk: quiet phrases even
jaminuk: also you might have to make the decision of the singers 'breaths' - do you keep them in or not
jaminuk: when you listen to songs on the radio/at home etc listen to how the vocal is gated - are the breaths left? are there any gating artefacts?
jaminuk: if you've got the time then more and more people are going down the route of 'manually gating' takes by deleting unwanted parts from the audio track
jaminuk: this allows much more control but is obviously much much more time consuming
jaminuk: the 'strip silence' function in cubase/pro tools can be used to help speed this process up however
jaminuk: why is it important do you think to gate before the compressor?
rbro100: The compressor will make low sounds louder?
jaminuk: good
rbro100: or the make up gain will
jaminuk: the dynamic range will be reduced
Kristian Eliasson: otherwise you make up gain will include noise
thx1138-Alex: the compression can make any noise even more evident
jaminuk: so what would happen if you put the gate after the compressor?
rbro100: you would only cut really low sounds
Kristian Eliasson: Well you can get rid of the compressors noise
rbro100: under the threshold
jaminuk: what problems might you have setting the threshold?
rbro100: you'll satrt to cut bit you want
rbro100: start*
Kristian Eliasson: you have more noise in the signal...?
jaminuk: right - basically the compressor will have (effectively) brought up the parts we wanted to gate therefore making the difference between the wanted and unwanted signals less - therefore difficult to set the threshold
jaminuk: gating is easier when you have the largest possible dynamic difference between wanted and unwanted signals
jaminuk: does this make sense?
thx1138-Alex: yep
Kristian Eliasson: yes
rbro100: wouldn't of two weeks ago, but strangly yes!
Andrew Barber: i
tobyh1000: yeah
jaminuk: great!
Me: that's cool!
jaminuk: ok finally i'll touch on EQ briefly
Me: Teacher smiles with pride at their students hard work
rbro100: still not getting e-apple
jaminuk: lol
Me:
rbro100: well.maybe
Me:
jaminuk: now there is some difference of opinion about where EQ is best placed in the processing chain (pre/post compression)
rbro100: banana?
Me: lol
jaminuk: what is a limitation of putting the EQ pre compressor?
thx1138-Alex: sounds more sordid than an apple
Me: oh please..
jaminuk: haha
rbro100: easy tiger
Me: Tone is becoming lowered..
Me: Go ahead ben..
thx1138-Alex: sorry to lower the tone there
jaminuk: ha ok - to repeat "what is a limitation of putting the EQ pre compressor?"
rbro100: the compressor will take some away?
rbro100: will change it again when it compresses
jaminuk: yes the compressor will counteract the increases in gain made at the EQ stage
jaminuk: so if you add 3dB of gain at, say, 500Hz, this may push the signal over the compression threshold and therefore reduce the signal
jaminuk: i'm a fan of using either method when appropriate - you will need to find the method(s) that work best for you
jaminuk: with EQ you can 'carve' a sound from your source material
jaminuk: there is a golden rule of compression
jaminuk: "always try to cut before you boost"
Me: oh yes
jaminuk: this is very important
jaminuk: the ear will notice a eq boost as being more unnatural than an eq cut
jaminuk: freqs interplay with each other a lot
rbro100: why?
jaminuk: so often you can get the same results by cutting somewhere else in the spectrum
jaminuk: lets say you wanted to increase legibility as the take is somewhat muffled of muddy
jaminuk: your first instinct may be to go for a boost in the 'presence' area (around 2-4kHz)
jaminuk: however, before you do this try applying a cut at 500Hz
jaminuk: often this may clear up the problem and sound more natural
jaminuk: rbro - it is a psycho-acoustical principle - something to do with the way the brain interprets sound and freqs etc
jaminuk: there are some areas that can benefit from a boost
jaminuk: you may hear of 'air' being added to a vocal take- this is often a boost of 1-3dB with a wide Q setting at around 10-12kHz
jaminuk: i better wrap this up now but i'll try to dig out a few EQ sheet things I have and post them on the forum
jaminuk: get experimenting at home!
Me: Thanks ben a very good insight there.
Me: Everyone sleeping?
Me: still with us?
jaminuk:
Kristian Eliasson: hehe yeah!
jaminuk: i have this effect on people hehe
rbro100: lol
tobyh1000: yo!
Me: no ben.. I didn't mean that, I think they may have been humbled
jaminuk:
Me: hehe
Me: So guys, what's the plans for this week?
rbro100: any practical?
jaminuk: should be one for synthesis
rbro100: Oh No got a synth older than I am!!!
jaminuk: well we'll do the practical with a soft synth although you could try replicating on your old synth too! could be interesting comparison
tobyh1000: work and more work this week
Andrew Barber: should i make my own folder in the upload section?
Andrew Barber: guess not then...
jaminuk: yes andy
rbro100: do we get feedback on our recordings or answers?
Me: yes...
Me: I'll listen to them tomorrow
Me: looking forward to it...
Me: So, feedback tomorrow or tuesday... and new questions tomorrow, and a practical...
jaminuk: right i've got to go guys
rbro100: Bye ben!
Kristian Eliasson: ok bye!
jaminuk: see you all next week
thx1138-Alex: bye
tobyh1000: bye
thx1138-Alex: time for me to go too
Me: Cheers all, have fun!!
jaminuk has left the conference.
Rachelh-Rachel: bye all see u next week
Rachelh-Rachel has left the conference.
rbro100: Bye AWD
thx1138-Alex: seeya
rbro100: Bye Renola
thx1138-Alex has left the conference.
Andrew Barber: off to bedfordshire, c soon
tobyh1000: see you all laters, i'm off too
rbro100: Bit like The Waltons!
Kristian Eliasson: okidoki bye bye see you during the week!
Andrew Barber has left the conference.
tobyh1000 has left the conference.
Kristian Eliasson has left the conference.
rbro100: CHris, I'm away on Honey Moon for a week, what will I do about questions, meetings etc?
rbro100: 10th Oct
Me: Catch up when you can...
Me: And congratulations!
rbro100: Will try to get to a computer 16th Oct
rbro100: Sunday
rbro100: Cheers
Me: see ya
rbro100: Going to be winched from a ferry to a helicopter next sunday morning
Me: lol
rbro100: Not Joking
rbro100: Lifeboat training
Me: hehe have fun!!...
Me: see you
rbro100: Good fun, see you next week
rbro100 has left the conference.
_________________
It's all in the ears. - Learn the concepts not the software.
Audio Courses is a way into the music business for you
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Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:44 am |
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