AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2048
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| Live Workshop 250207 |
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b m has joined the conference.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR has joined the conference.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hi Ben
b m: Hey Daniel
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hi Chris
David Selonke has joined the conference.
Ken Boatman has joined the conference.
b m: Hi david, hi ken
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hey Everyone, how's it going?
David Selonke: hi
Ken Boatman: hello!
Me: Evening all
Ken Boatman: Hi Crs
b m: good week everyone?
Ken Boatman: Chris
David Selonke: yep
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yea, but long.
Ken Boatman: very busy
b m: good stuff
Me: I've been using twitter.com recently, another one of those socialnetworking sites
b m: oh, have't heard of that one
Me: http://twitter.com/audio
Me: I'm sending most in from my cell phone..
b m: so is that like bebo/myspace etc?
Me: thugh you can also send in from IM
Me: This connectivity forms quickly
Me: Ill fire one in... special for you
Me:
b m: so you just answer 'what are you doing?' via IM etc?
Me: yep
David Selonke: intresting
b m: so how does interaction take place if the onus is on 'what are you doing now?'
Me: You answer someone..
Me: like if you said "i'm now eating meat" - id get that and reply to that with I thought you were a veggie
b m: ah ok
b m: so everyone get their feedback from the questions this week?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yep
David Selonke: havnt checked my email yet, let me do that now
b m: ok
Ken Boatman: what questions...
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: All though I didn't think I was going to make it. 18hours of work on Friday and called in on Saturday. Management, you have to love it. Always on call. LOL
b m: sorry ken, you don't have questions, you have the mixes but i know you got your fedback
b m: feedback
Ken Boatman: i sent 2nd mix, but didnt hear from you. I think you were on hiloday
Ken Boatman: holiday
b m: hmm hold on
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Sometimes I wonder if being a manage is even worth it. LOL But the pay is GOOD!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Manager
Ken Boatman: managing is challenging indeed!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yea, it is. I have 120 drivers of test trucks for Caterpillar that I deal with daily, 24/7.
b m: ken - did you get the last 2 frequency documents i sent?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Plus I am also the Transportation Safety Manager for the trucking department.
Ken Boatman: e
Ken Boatman: +
b m: ?
Ken Boatman: Sorry. my keyboard depleated its batteries
b m: haha
David Selonke: So spill is when you are using more then one mic and you get sounds that are supposed to be recorded with another mic but they are "spilling" into one of the mics they are not supposed to?
Ken Boatman: had an emergency change.
b m: yes, that is the most common usage of the term
Ken Boatman: Ben, I did receive the 2 freq docs. Thanks
b m: and headphone spill also
b m: ken - ok, that is the last email i sent you
David Selonke: what is headphone spill?
b m: when the performer is wearing headphones
b m: with the track playing
b m: and the mic picks up the 'spill' from the headphones
b m: most common with vocalists
b m: in fact, check out the track 'beautiful' by aguilera
b m: massively obvious headphone spill at the strart AND end of the song
b m: and what makes it worse is that they must have changed the drum part between the vocal tracking and the final mix
b m: so the drum part you hear 'spilling' is completely different to the final drump part - has a tad more 'swing'
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: So how can you tell that about the drum part?
b m: check it out if you can
b m: you can hear the hat and snare come from the headphones into the vocal mic
b m: but in the final track this occurs when there are no drums present
b m: but the songs drum part is relatively 'straight'
b m: whereas the spill has a bit of swing
b m: hold on, let me just put up a bit of the track on the FTP and you can check it out
b m: really good example of 'spill' on a commercial track
b m: give you guys the link in a sec when it has uploaded
b m: before we go any further, i need to leave about 20 minutes early tonight if everyone is ok with that?
Ken Boatman: fine with me
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: That's fine
b m: cool, i'm happy to make it up next week if needed
David Selonke: can we also talk about the half-normaling and patchbay....im totally lost with that
b m: sure david, i've got a couple of things to chat about - looks like we've already got 'spill' pretty much done though
b m: also, it'd be good if we could have a listen to kens latest mix
b m: is it on one of the FTPs ken?
Ken Boatman: yes it is
Ken Boatman: ftp://www.audiocourses.com/Ken's%20Files/Week%203%20-%20R%26B%20Music%20Production/
b m: ok we'll have a look at that in a minute
b m: very quickly though
b m: edited
b m: if that link works
b m: check out the intro and the outro - blatant headphone spill
Ken Boatman: oh yeah!
Ken Boatman: a snare (I think)
David Selonke: i hear it now
b m: yeah, and theres a bit of hat in there too
b m: the outro is the most blatant - the line 'dont you bring me down today' just before the string crescendo at the finale
b m: the reason this was let 'through the net' was that the producer felt that later vocal takes that were done 'perfectly' didn't have the feeling
David Selonke: wow, at the end is very noticable
b m: this was the guide vocal for the track
b m: yeah, right at the end it really comes up
b m: of course, this is the kind of thing that compression will really highlight
b m: you can gate out the spill in the silences but if it is present under the vocal there is very little you can do
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I can really hear it at the end
b m: absolutely
b m: back in the old motown recording days however, there was a lot more spill
b m: the 80s/90s in particular saw people striving for a lot of seperation in their recordings
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: You know I have listened to that song before and never really noticed that, but since talking about spill and that song, I can now hear it when I listen to it.
b m: daniel - everytime you hear that song now you will be thinking 'ooh, headphone spill'
b m: it's ruined my enjoyment of that song
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: That and others. LOL
b m: hehe
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Now that I know more about spill I'll probably start picking it out in other songs.
b m: yeah, listen for quiet passages, particularly vocal parts where the band drop out
b m: i've recorded bands before where you think you've got the perfect take only to find that the mic on the double bass has picked up the click track from the headphones
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Ouch!
b m: yeah, you can try to be a bit clever and try to use polarity/phase reversal to counteract but it's 'polishing a turd' as the saying goes
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I can't wait to get into the mixing class. I think I will start listening to songs in a different way.
b m: oh you'll be picking the bones out of them!
b m: speaking of which, know would be a good time to listen to Kens latest mix
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: It's kind of like you never see a dodge charger on the road until you buy one and then they are all over the place. lol
Ken Boatman: you can hear neat things on the vocal tracks.... pages turining.... doors opening, etc
b m: haha - absolutely
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Ken's link will not let me into it.
b m: ok let me see if i can sort that
David Selonke: but when i bought my charger i never see them
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Always one in the bunch that got to be different. LOL
David Selonke: but all my other cars thats how it went
Ken Boatman: that's me
David Selonke: its the R&B track we are supposed to be listening to right?
Ken Boatman: yes
b m: yes
David Selonke: good, cuz thats the one im listening too
David Selonke: lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I still can't access it.
David Selonke: and good job
b m: haha
David Selonke: http://www.audiocourses.com/ACPMM01/Ken's%20Files/Week%203%20-%20R&B%20Music%20Production/
b m: ah there you go!
b m: david to the rescue!
David Selonke: lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Thanks Dave, got it.
David Selonke: np
b m: one thing about that track that really annoys me - obviously nothing to do with your mixing ken - is that vibrato'd bass sound that comes in and out - most prominent at the intro - for some reason i can't get on with that sound
Ken Boatman:
b m: sounds good though ken - how many dB did you notch out at that problem freq on the vocal?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Real good Ken
Ken Boatman: i think I notched it 3.7
Ken Boatman: Thanks Daniel
b m: back in 30 secs guys
David Selonke: k
Ken Boatman: I think I used a Q of about 11
b m: back
b m: which EQ was it that you used Ken?
Ken Boatman: Waves Q10
b m: ah yes
b m: the waves Q EQ is good for what i'd call 'clinical' EQ
b m: or you could even call it surgical i guess
Ken Boatman: agree. You can do some "carving" with it
b m: absolutely
b m: david, dan - http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=321 - that is the EQ
Ken Boatman: UAD make a Cambridge EQ which is also enjoyable to work with
b m: I've never had the opportunity to use the UAD EQs - used the ones for the Powercore and they were ok
b m: i had the chance to use some software EQ by URS the other day and was very impressed
Ken Boatman: they make great EQ and Compressors
b m: http://www.ursplugins.com/
b m: EQs are a funny thing
b m: some people are practically militant about what kind of EQs they use
Ken Boatman: hahaha. i suppose it is what you are comfortable with
b m: ken - do you have many of the waves plugins?
Ken Boatman: yes.
Ken Boatman: diamond bundle
b m: i like the R EQ for a bit more character - is that in the diamond bundle?
Ken Boatman: i believe so
b m: r=renaissance
Ken Boatman: they make a ren 4, 6 and 8 band
b m: yeah, that has a more analogue feel to my ears
b m: dan, dave - http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=190 - that is the R EQ
b m: daniel & david - did you want a quick overview of the standing waves issue?
David Selonke: please
b m: ken are you aware of 'standing waves'?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yes
Ken Boatman: dunno
b m: ok, lets try to pick out the relevant details here
b m: a standing wave is sometimes known as a 'stationary wave'
b m: a wave that 'doesn't move'
b m: however this isn't exactly the case
b m: lets think about sound waves for a moment
b m: as you know a sound wave has a 'wavelength' - this varies depending on frequency
b m: for arguments sake lets say we are in a room with a length of 10metres
b m: and we are working with a freq with a wavelength of 5m
b m: (these figures are just for easy reckoning by the way)
b m: so we have the wave producing 2xfull wavelengths before it hits the opposite wall
b m: with me so far
b m: ?
Ken Boatman: yep
b m: dave, dan?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yep
David Selonke: gotchya
b m: good
b m: ok, so it hits the opposite wall
b m: and 'bounces back' into the room in the opposite direction
b m: sorry, i've got those figures slightly wrong - so much for easy reckoning eh?
b m:
b m: hehe
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: No one's perfect. lol
b m: hehe, no i was actually describing a 'null' which is kind of the opposite
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: If I was I wouldn't be here, right?
b m:
b m: ok this might actually be better to describe with an image
b m: it can be a bit tricky to visualise
b m: let me just find a pic, or better a moving image
b m: ok can't find a good pic so will have to go on verbally
b m: so what is occurring with a standing wave is that the reflected sound is 'in phase' with the original sound
b m: a true standing wave needs to be exactly in phase
b m: so that the reflected peaks match up with the original peaks
b m: and the reflected nulls match up with the original nulls
b m: so therefore the wave appears to be 'stationary'
b m: or 'standing'
b m: now this has obvious implications acoustically
b m: when a standing wave occurs
b m: the freq at which this occurs will be boosted
b m: so therefore
b m: you will have an unnatural 'resonance' at certain freqs
b m: you can check this out if you have a MIDI keyboard or bass guitar at home
b m: start at the lowest note possible and move chromatically through all notes
b m: certain notes will sound really loud at certain freqs
b m: in my home studio it is Bb
b m: now not only will you get this unnatural peak at that particular freq, you will get it at multiples of that freq
b m: ah - found a good anim - http://www.rmcybernetics.com/images/main/pyhsics/standing_wave.gif
b m: here the blue wave is the original
b m: the green wave is the wave reflecting
Ken Boatman: ie 40hertz, 80 hertz, 120 hertz?
b m: ken - correct
b m: and the red wave is the 'sum' of the waves
Ken Boatman: i can see that the sum is quite a bit higher than the original wave
b m: absolutely - if we don't take into account the inverse square law of a waveform losing power
b m: it would actually result in a doubling of signal
b m: although in reality the waves lose a bit of power so it isn't quite a doubling
b m: but obviously when the reflected sound hits the opposite wall it bounces back again
b m: and eventually hits the other wall and bounces back again
b m: and so on
b m: at low freqs you get a real resonance/boominess in the room
b m: at high freqs you get something called a 'flutter echo'
b m: ever clicked your fingers/clapped your hands in a small room or stairwell and heard a metallic ringing?
Ken Boatman: yes
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: yep
b m: well that is basically the same principle but at high freqs
David Selonke: i get it!
b m: the sound of the click hits the opposte wall, bounces back, bounces back etc
b m: so this makes the sound louder and drags the duration of the sound out
David Selonke: what about the low freq, whats a real life example of that?
b m: well at low freqs you get a resonance - you might find with a bass guitar or a sine wave patch on a keyboard
b m: if you go up through the ntoes
b m: notes
b m: certain notes will sound REALLY loud and wil possibly make things shake in the room
David Selonke: o ok
b m: try it with a bass guitar or a sinewave synth sound
Ken Boatman: i experience that in my studio as well
Ken Boatman: auralex helps
b m: now the thing is, with something like a finger click, it is quite obvious at it is a short transient that makes it easier to hear the residual bouncing of the waveform
b m: but if you put your hi-fi in the same room you are less likely to hear colouring
b m: but the reality is at certain freqs you are getting real 'build ups' of freq
b m: if you want to see the theoretical freqs that will bother your room, look here
b m: http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm
b m: this deals with 'room modes' which are essentially low frequency standing waves
b m: the opposite also occurs however
b m: some frequencies will have the reflected waveform out of polarity with the original
b m: so in this case the inverse occurs - certain frequencies will appear very quiet
b m: because the waves are almost 'cancelling' each other out
b m: and this is why we spend mney on acoustic treatment!
b m: money
b m: and this is also, as you can see in the room mode calc, why rooms with equal dimensions and parallel walls and ceilings are the worst possible rooms to work in!
b m: i.e. totally square rooms
b m: does that all make sense?
Ken Boatman: yes
David Selonke: it does
b m: that gif is the best way of visualising it
b m: you ok with it dan?
Ken Boatman: i think we may have put Dan to sleep
b m:
b m: hehe
David Selonke: lol
b m: oh no!
David Selonke: now can we discuss the halfnormaling and patchbay stuff
b m: sure david - daniel, i hope you're ok wherever you are?
b m: ok patchbays, you understand the basic function of them i.e. why we have them?
David Selonke: lol
David Selonke: not really...
b m: ok we can clear that up really quickly
b m: imagine you have a studio with all that nice shiny gear in racks and a desk with gazillions of inputs
David Selonke: ok
b m: well, everytime you want to connect a compressor, or a hardware eq, or a reverb or whatever, you're going to have to get round the back of the racks or on top of the desk
b m: and start pulling leads in and out
b m: and this in turn wears out the sockets in your expensive desk/hardware
b m: hold on daniel is coming back
b m: powercut
b m: hold on trying to get dan back in
David Selonke: o lol
b m: ok guys, we're going to have to move rooms briefly, daniel is 'locked' out as the powercut meant he is still logged into the room
b m: 2 secs
David Selonke: ok
b m: daniel - i'll email you the transcript of the conference so you can see what you've missed
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Some weird weather. Huh?
David Selonke: ya we got all the ice yesterday
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Thanks
b m: and it is available on the site
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yea we had ice all day yesterday
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: What site
b m: audiocourses
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: OK
b m: we post each workshop up in the forum for you guys to access
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I din't know that. Thanks
b m: ok carrying on, this is where we were up to:
b m: ben_audiocourses: ok patchbays, you understand the basic function of them i.e. why we have them?
David Selonke: lol
David Selonke: not really...
ben_audiocourses: ok we can clear that up really quickly
ben_audiocourses: imagine you have a studio with all that nice shiny gear in racks and a desk with gazillions of inputs
David Selonke: ok
ben_audiocourses: well, everytime you want to connect a compressor, or a hardware eq, or a reverb or whatever, you're going to have to get round the back of the racks or on top of the desk
ben_audiocourses: and start pulling leads in and out
ben_audiocourses: and this in turn wears out the sockets in your expensive desk/hardware
b m: so obviously this isn't ideal in terms of (a) ergonomics and (b) wear and tear of equipment
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: you betcha
b m: so it made sense to bring all the inputs and outputs together into one convenient location
b m: i.e. a patchbay
b m: or patchfield as some people call it
Ken Boatman: and the frustration of getting behind the racks!
b m: absolutely, all the hitting of the head on the table when trying to climb out
David Selonke: lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Been there done that
b m: and people forgetting to put everything back where it was at the start
b m: yeah, the hitting of the head is the worst
b m: it makes me mad
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: My head has more knots than carter has pills. lol
b m: ouch!
David Selonke: so bassically u hook everything up to that so instead of wearing out all the equipment you wear out the patchbay
David Selonke: ?
b m: exactly
David Selonke: lol ok
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I hate to loan my stuff out becuase I always end up being called out to set it up because they can't figure it out.
b m: here is a pic of a small/medium sized patchbay
b m: http://www.trstudio.com/images/gear/patchbay.jpg
b m: this is from a larger patchbay
b m: http://www.studiometronome.com/images/Patchbay.jpg
David Selonke: jeez, i would get confused
b m: haha, yes they can look confusing
b m: but it really is not that tricky
b m: now a normal patchbay that you buy has 2 rows
b m: as in each untit has 2 rows
b m: i.e. http://www.thetwistergroup.com/store/image.php?imagefile=D%3C%3EPB-48.JPG
b m: oh we've lost daniel again
David Selonke: lol
David Selonke: i just noticed that too
Ken Boatman: oh no
b m: argh
b m: ok lets soldier on
b m: the convention here is that you the top row are OUTPUTS and the bottom row are INPUTS
David Selonke: ok
b m: so lets say we are dealing with channel inserts
David Selonke: now that i think about it they dont seem to hard to figure out
b m: a channel insert obviously has a IN and an OUT
b m: so lets say we need to put a compressor on a vocal
b m: we use the channel insert on that channel
b m: connect the OUT (top socket) to the IN of a compressor
b m: and the OUT (top) of the compressor to the IN (bottom) of the channel insert
b m: you follow that
b m: ?
Ken Boatman: yup
David Selonke: yep
b m: ok, now this is where we get the difference between NORMAL and HALF-NORMAL
b m: in a NORMALISED setup, if we take signal from the OUT of the channel insert, the link to the IN is removed
b m: so if we just plug a jack into the OUT of the channel insert we lose all signal on that channel as it is not being returned via the IN
b m: so it ends in silence
b m: until we return the signal from the compressor (or whatever) to the IN on the channel insert
b m: that make sense?
Ken Boatman: closing the circuit
b m: so anytime you plug anything into the OUT, the signal HAS to be returned via the IN
b m: now with a HALF-NORMAL circuit things are different
b m: plugging something into the OUT does not break the circuit
b m: so we can take a signal from the insert
b m: and send it wherever
b m: and return it to another channel
b m: without losing the original signal
Ken Boatman: taht's nice
b m: yes, that opens up lots of creative possibilities
b m: and saves using a lot more leads
b m: david - is this making sense?
Ken Boatman: yes
David Selonke: ya im starting to get it
b m: ok, well it is 19:40GMT and i have to go - david, if you need any more clarification send me a mail and i can go over it with you tomorrow
David Selonke: ok
b m: ken - if you want send me that other mix we talked about
Ken Boatman: Ben, do u still have the original mp3 i sent?
b m: yes still have pt 1
Ken Boatman: no the original mix
b m: you mean version 1 of week 3?
Ken Boatman: no - the original song I sent
b m: um, the only MP3s I have are the R'n'B and the dance remix
b m: did you send another one?
Ken Boatman: yes, i will send it again
b m: ok, please do
Ken Boatman: see everyone next week
David Selonke: cya
b m: cheers guys, good work!
b m: see you next week
Ken Boatman: ny
b m: bye
Ken Boatman: by
David Selonke: bye
b m: au revoir!
_________________
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Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:47 pm |
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