AUdIoCoUrSeS
Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 2068
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| Live Workshop 250307 |
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DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hi All
b m: hi everyone
David Selonke: hello
Ken Boatman: greets
b m: how's it going with you all?
the_electrosushi: Hello
Ken Boatman: ok
the_electrosushi: good, back from the holidays... much better
b m: i could do with a holiday i tell you - somewhere warm and dry!
the_electrosushi: exactly... I reccomend Tenerife
Ken Boatman: Ben, youre welcome to visit NC. 84* F and sunny!
robert Rosequist: hello
b m: wow, it is wet grey and cold where i am right now
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Good except my son had an electrical fire in his daughter's bedroom last week. At least he was home and caught it before it did much damage. Although I have spent the last three days re-wiring his house with new wire and got rid of all that old Knob and Tube wiring.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: It is sunny and warm here right now.
b m: that was lucky ken
the_electrosushi: absolutley
Ken Boatman: eh?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I found out last week that I will be laid off April 6th because another company came in and underbid our company. So now I am Job hunting again. Just got promoted to manager a couple of months ago and now this. Oh Well
b m: oh no, thats a shame dan
Ken Boatman: Daniel, Sorry to hear that!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yep but I will prevail as always. lol
Ken Boatman: people with positive attitudes always do
b m: absolutely
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I never let anything get me down. It isn't worth it.
David Selonke: Enjoy Life while u can!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: That's why I still have most of my hair and no gray at 53.
David Selonke: lol, Awesome!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I think I will sit back and collect unemployment for awhile and enjoy myself by fishing.
David Selonke: man...i cant wait to retire...
b m: lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I still day trade which brings in a good amount of money each day anyway. I'll just sit at home and do that. lol
b m: 'day trade', what is that?
David Selonke: ya?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Day trading stocks. I am in and out in a matter or minutes, hours or a couple of days.
b m: i've never got my head around stocks and shares
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I invest about 5,000 and in minutes I can make from 2,000 to 10,000 profit.
b m: really?
b m: wow
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I don't buy stocks for long term. I buy for cvery short terms
the_electrosushi: I have some as part of my retribuition, but I wish I knew how to use them better than I do
Ken Boatman: sounds like you just found your new full-time job
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yep
Ken Boatman: that leaves plenty of time to record music!
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Benn wanting to stay at home anyway. lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Been
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I am trying to learn the Sonar 6 Producer Edition and this will give me the time to do it.
Ken Boatman: you'll love s6PE
Ken Boatman: get the book by Mark Garrigus
Ken Boatman: Power Sonar (I think it is called)
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I have it already and really enjoy it.
b m: i hear a lot of good things about sonr
b m: sonar
Ken Boatman: good tool
Russell Brown has joined the conference.
Russell Brown: Hi, sorry i'm late
b m: hi russ, no worries
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Had a little problem trying to export my nosiegatepractical exercise back to a wave file after playing with it but finally figured it out.
b m: ah yes the practical files
b m: we'll cover that a bit later
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Ben, you should be able to access it in my file on the ftp site now. Sorry it took so long but I was having some trouble.
b m: no probs daniel - david, do you know how to get files onto the FTP?
David Selonke: no
David Selonke: whats the ftp site we are supposed to upload to?
David Selonke: the one on the forums?
b m: there are instructions in one of the threads - i'll send you the link in a sec
David Selonke: k
b m: have you guys ever heard of 'JP22'
b m: ?
Ken Boatman: no
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Nope
David Selonke: nope'
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: What is it?
the_electrosushi: http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/10/has-jp22-got-himself-new-job.html
b m: haha, it was basically this guy some years back who appeared on some audio recording forums
b m: and he was (a) incorrect in almost everything he said and (b) very aggressive in putting down other people
Me: reminds me of a certain poster we has on SRE for a while.
b m: when you guys get the time it is worth reading through the original thread : http://www.recording.org/ftopic-30855-days0-orderasc-0.html
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: that isn't nice.
b m: thing is though he is sooooo wrong in so many of the assertions he makes
b m: that it has much comedic value
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Reading it now
b m: it goes on for about 30+ pages but you'll get the gist from his first few posts
b m: theres a succint collection of his 'knowledge' here
b m: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Jp22
Me: lol
Ken Boatman: hahahah
Ken Boatman: this is great!
b m: the guy gets so irate it is unbelievable
b m: !
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Funny
Me: yeah sounds like Walters
b m: was Walters a poster on SRE chris?
Me: OMG yes
Me: Drove everyone crazy for a time
the_electrosushi: I wonder where he studied... lol
Me: Ill find a classic
Me: http://www.studiorecordingengineer.com/ftopict-1015.html
b m: lol
b m: he likes his polaritys
Me: dear me
the_electrosushi: it gets scary when he introduces also the schematics...
Me: lol
DANIEL WORKMAN SR:
b m: haha
Me: people evetentually found him and started laying into him.. he was banned on some other forums I believe
Me: lol
Me: harmony central etc
b m: haha
Me: he actually picks subjects which exist...
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Lot of idiots out there.
Me: but he forms the words in an ill-manner to confuse people.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Smart ones at that lol
Me: lol
Me: So, yes he sounds similar to the other guy...
Me: just not so famous
Me: At this point just to mention the live workshop will start one hour earlier next week.. and continue that way.
David Selonke: lol, ya i came an hour early again...lol
b m: haha
Russell Brown: was it 7 it started tonight? or 6?
b m: 19:00BST
b m: i think!
Me: on the schedule is starts at 17:00 GMT as from today.
b m: i get confused every year! haha
Me: http://www.audiocourses.com/sections-viewarticle-49.html
Russell Brown: so it started at 18:00bst?
Me: yes is should have.
b m: 19:00BST this week
b m: 18:00BST from next week onwards
Russell Brown: ok
Me: but as we didnt discuss this, we stayed at the normal time.
Me: So yes at 17:00 GMT next week, which is indeed 18:00 BST... we use GMT through BST due to people outside of BST not using BST, but GMT.. and my name is Walters.
b m: lol
Russell Brown: lol
the_electrosushi:
b m: time zones completely throw me
b m: good job i don't live in the states
Ken Boatman: Chris, LOL!
Me: hehe
Ken Boatman: Chris (aka Walters!)
b m: the secret is out!
Ken Boatman: aka JP22?!
Me: lol
the_electrosushi: eheheheh
b m: brb
Me: There was some discussion in the news a few month back about staying on BST all year round.
Me: Personally I love that... lighter evenings.
b m: yeah i wouldn't mind that
the_electrosushi: ifI remeber well, the main reason was about power saving
b m: i thought it was about kids walking to school
Russell Brown: try living up here, doesn't get light till 9 as it is
Me: That was one of the benfits yes...
Me: See I knew Russell would mention that...
Me: that's the negative bit
Me:
Russell Brown: what works for the majority!
Me: Not as in Russell is negative, but the mornings are darker up north.... so kids would be going to school in the dark.
Me: Anyway..
Me: How's audio stuff this week?
Russell Brown:
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Good
Me: How was the work load? I've checked out my lot.. was impressed in most areas.
the_electrosushi: I got to a point where I got stuck... defining the "spin in"
Me: Good phrase to know...
Me: Can always "drop it in" down the pub with mates...
the_electrosushi:
Me: Did you get to the root of it?
the_electrosushi: i think I did... that's why I couldn't find it anywhere
Me: Anyone want a crack at defining "spin in"?
Me: hehe
Ken Boatman: i'll pass on this one
Me: It dates back to tape days.. hint hint
Ken Boatman: "letd-in" time?
Ken Boatman: lead in
Me: Spin in was a technique where the engineer would spin-in a sound or take from another reel.... as a kind of overdub
Me: The Beatles did a lot of spinning in...
Me: It's obviously something we do not have to worry about too much these days...
Me: Although some enginerrs/producers still use the term in DAW environments
Me: Can you spin in a different snare dude..
Me: etc.
Russell Brown: how old are they though?
the_electrosushi: can I say that the double mono the beatles were using was a spin in?
Me: The dudes or snare?
Russell Brown: the engineers
Me: hehe I've heard young folk use it, if they have trained alongside an elder
Me: it's jargon..
Russell Brown: good to know though
b m: i also hear people say 'fly over' quite a bit
Me: Yes it is confusing, as nothing spins anymore really in the moder studio.
b m: can fly over that crash cymbal etc
Russell Brown: whats that? spill
Russell Brown: ?
Me: another good one!
the_electrosushi: nice one, now I can move forward
b m: no when people want to take a piece of audio from one place and put it somewhere else, they say 'fly over' - don't know the roots of it though
the_electrosushi: Spill: is the audio caught by a microphone which is not intended to be taken.... right?
b m: yes thats right
b m: we talked about spill the other week with regards to Aguileras track 'beautiful'
b m: headphone spill on that occasion
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I remember that
the_electrosushi: really? interesting
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: It was bad
b m: yeah you basically hear the spill from her headphones at several points in the track
b m: noticeably the intro and outro - check it out some time
the_electrosushi: defo I will
Me: Yeah it's a good un that
Russell Brown: is it laziness or intent?
b m: it was the best take
Russell Brown: hahaha
b m: and the first take also1
b m: apparently they couldn't better that take
b m: not only is the spill audible, the drum pattern you hear in her headphones isn't the same pattern that ended up on the record
Russell Brown: thats the funniest thing i've heard all day
Me: Yes, a little spill is so not important in the grand scheme of things.. nothing is more important than getting that emotional take..
Ken Boatman: Could they have used a gate to minimize the spill when there was not vocals?
Ken Boatman: not = no
b m: they have gated
b m: but it is audible when she is actually singing
b m: you hear the gate shut pretty quickly after the offending lines
Ken Boatman: ahhhh. ok
b m: i get worked up about hi hat spill on snare mics sometimes
b m: makes it really hard to work on the snare with the hat splashing around in the background
b m: positioning can reduce spill by using 'dead areas' of mics polar pattern etc
Russell Brown: oh, just re-read, took what you said wrong Ben
b m: ha, what did you think i meant?
Russell Brown: I thought you meant she was that bad, that's the best they could do!
b m: haha
Russell Brown: Now snare spill...
Russell Brown: I've a real prob with it
Russell Brown: how d'you mic and what mics
b m: well a cardioid mic is good here as you can use the null at 190degrees in the polar pattern
b m: 180 doh
b m: obviously the most common mic is SM57
b m: a LOT of the records you hear will have had a SM57 on the snare
Russell Brown: that's what we use, what d'you have to do?
b m: well you know the cardioid polar pattern?
Russell Brown: yes
Me: Snare spill where Russell? where exactly?
b m: i'm presuming you are on about hat into snare?
Russell Brown: we get a little hi-hat and a lot of kick
b m: ok, well the cardioid pattern rejects sound from 180degrees
b m: i.e. the rear of the mic
b m: so you ideally want the rear of the mic facing the hats
Russell Brown: but wouldn't that face the toms and kick more?
b m: well yes, but then you consider the angle that you direct the mic at
Russell Brown: ok
b m: if you pointing down at a shallow angle then you will get more kick/toms etc
b m: a more 'severe' angle will reduce kick spill
Russell Brown: so sharp angle with the rear on the hi-hat?
b m: but it becomes a juggling act
b m: yes try that russel
Russell Brown: will do, have got some bands in tommorow
b m: you can also try using a small square of acoustic foam, maybe like 8 inches square
b m: making a hole in the middle so the SM57 can go through the middle
b m: this can attenuate the high freqs from the hat a little
Russell Brown: ok
Me: yes you can buy those actually..
Russell Brown: what d'you make on sanre mic under the sanre?
Russell Brown: snare
b m: it is quite common to have a snare mic (with polarity reversed) on the underside also
b m: and it is also not totally uncommon to actually have a mic pointing at the side of the snare (i.e. the shell)
b m: wherever sounds best!
Russell Brown: ok cheers
Me: Ben is it worth mentioning alternative (actually old skool) methods...
Me: Liek Recordman Technique etc?
b m: yes we could quickly go over that
b m: russ - http://www.auralex.com/gallery/images/xp_3lr.jpg
Me: would be helpful i think
b m: that is kinda like the foam thing i was describing
Russell Brown: cheers Ben
b m: are you all aware of the recorderman technique?
the_electrosushi: heard it on the podcasts
b m: it is essentially a method of overhead mic-ing a drum kit to get the best phase coherence on the kick/snare
b m: this basically involves using some string to measure out equal distances between the kick/snare and the mic capsules
b m: there is a good little video about the technique here:http://www.sfrecording.com/videos/DrumRecording.mp4
b m: one of the keys to a good drum sound is the sound of the overheads (at least for most styles of music)
b m: there are several methods used as overheads such as AB (spaced pair)
b m: XY (crossed pair)
b m: AB sounds more 'stereo' but can suffer phase problems
b m: XY on the other hand has excellent phase coherency BUT doesn't sound so 'wide'
Ken Boatman: ive read that before but did not know it had a name
b m: recorderman technique sits in the middle, a spaced pair that is phase coherent for the 2 main drums
b m: as time is moving on maybe this would be a good opportunity to hear Kens latest mixdown?
Ken Boatman: sure
Ken Boatman: http://kenboatman.com/uploads/AudioCourses/One%20and%20Only%20(Urban%20ReMix)%20-%20Ken%202.mp3
b m: this is a dance remix despite the waves label of 'urban'
Ken Boatman: yes
b m: everyone having a listen?
the_electrosushi: yep
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yep
Russell Brown: havin internet probs
b m: its a pretty good mix i think - anyone have any opinions/input on the mix?
Me: Im sure they do..
Me: shyness maybe
the_electrosushi: I think so too, about the voice: there is a phaser also right?
Ken Boatman: the lows have been removed with an EQ. There is not Phaser on them. It is kind of like a "telephone" effect
Ken Boatman: there is a bit of p[hasing on guitars and main synth
the_electrosushi: alright, so there is no panning on the voice either?
Ken Boatman: no - no panning on vocals
b m: well everyone is very shy tonight!
b m:
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I thought it sounded good but don't have the original to hear and go by.
b m: its not really about comparison, more about the tonal balance etc
b m: and if all instruments are audible etc
b m: i think maybe the telephone effect could have been used as a spot effect rather than all the way through but this is highly subjective
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: See without knowing what it was he was suppose to do, it is kind of hard for me to know what to listen for.
Me: Dan, do you like it?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Yes Sir
Me: Or, is there anything you do not like about it?
Me: Is there anything you would do differently?
Russell Brown: brb
Me: Would you crank a screaming lead guitar in it for example?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Not that I can think of. I am only a beginner at this so I am listening as much as possible.
Me: The key is to do what you feel might work, and then believe in it.....
Me: Or one of the key elements anyway.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: OK, that is what I did on my friends songs that I recorded. Didn't really know just what I was doing but made it sound the way I wanted to hear it and it turned out pretty good according to Ben and Ken
Me: That's awesome
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: They arre in my folder on the ftp site.
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: So Ben and Ken could listen to them
b m: i tell you what i would've tried (and probably failed) - i would have made some copies of the lead vocal in the chorus and use something like melodyne to create some harmonies - that track is really crying out for some thick backing vox in the chorus
Russell Brown: whats melodyne?
b m: its a pitch correction tool that you can use to change the melodic content of monophonic audio sources
b m: http://www.celemony.com/melodyne/
Ken Boatman: The vocals (i found) were "sparse" in this track. Not the main focus of thew song, which is not quite wqhat I am accustomed to
b m: yeah i'd personally want more but obviously you are given what you're given
b m: and that genre is more about kick and bass
the_electrosushi: yes, I personally feel that the genre influences a lot the song you are mixing and probably also what the listener would focus on
b m: absolutely
the_electrosushi: excuse my english
Me: Ok.. can I mention a practical is set for this week for RT
Me: Classical Edit....
Russell Brown: oh that was fun
Me:
Me: I don't mind if anyone else wants a crack..
Ken Boatman: what exactly is it, Chris?
Me: There are also questions to get into.. so it will be a busy week .
Russell Brown: no I meant it I really enjoyed it
Me: cenario: You are working as part of a team for a classical music FM radio station. There is a forth coming broadcast which is entitled "Classical Music - The Popular Classics". You have been asked to produce an advertisment that will be played in the lead up to the broadcast to entice more listeners to tune in.
the_electrosushi: sounds fun
Me: Yes Russell
Ken Boatman: do you create it or use existing materials?
Me: The advert must conform to the following:
1. Must only use the music provided.
2. Must contain a voice over. (this is up to you to make exciting)
3. Finished format must be broadcast suitable 128K mp3 in stereo with mono compatibility
4. Duration bang on 29 secs and no shorter or longer.
5. Uploaded by Friday to your folder, as a ZIP file, in the correct week.
Ken Boatman: yeah - sounds fun!
Me: The object of this practical is to:
· Familiarise yourself with the operation of your dedicated digital audio editor
· Learn how to record and edit classical samples
· Learn how to combine voice with music
· Understand how to work within a rigid niche and target audience
· Be able to convert to differing formats such as mp3
Me: and the music is here: http://www.audiocourses.com/part3/week2/classicaledit.zip
Me: Ben does this for a living by the way.
Me: So he might have some tips.
Me:
b m: heres a good one - don't get too good or i'll be out of work!
b m:
DANIEL WORKMAN SR:
b m: clarity of voice is important here - maybe make use of the proximity effect if you have a cardioid vocal mic
the_electrosushi: unless my name is Walter, I don't think I can compete.. yet
Me: lol
Me: too funny
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Or JP22
b m: haha
b m: maybe look into 'ducking' if you are not aware of it
b m: this is vitally important for most radio ads of this style
the_electrosushi: also to create the impression that the voice doesn't really mix with the background song right?
b m: yeah you don't want to sound like the 'vocalist' if that is what you mean
the_electrosushi: yep
b m: obviously with classical music this isn't as much of a concern
Russell Brown: unless you sound like an oboe
b m: LOL!!!
Me: lol
the_electrosushi:
b m: also you need to think creatively in terms of the layout of the advert
b m: you have to work to particular length and have peaks and troughs etc
b m: it is a good practical this one
Ken Boatman: r u looking for all of us to submit this ad?
David Selonke: Im gunna do it! cuz it looks fun
b m:
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I'll give it a try although my 10 weeks are up
David Selonke: lol same here
b m: it is good fun for sure
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I have downloaded it so I am ready.
Me: hehe
b m: good man!
Russell Brown: sorry to change the subject but, I'm having a bit of studio setup problems can anyone help?
David Selonke: iv already got it download too
b m: go ahead russ
Russell Brown: everything in the studio works fine but...
Russell Brown: I get no monitor level whatsoever
Russell Brown: audio or PPM
Russell Brown: don't know why
Russell Brown: I get it when it's recorded
b m: is audio being routed to the monitor bus?
Russell Brown: this is the problem, I don't know...
b m: is this software or hardware?
Ken Boatman: ive got to run. my dog ate my son's gameboy and he is in tears. I promised him i would get him a replacement when class was over. He is hovering asking if we are done.
Russell Brown: both
b m: lol ok ken
David Selonke: lol
Russell Brown: cubase 4 and a yamaha 01x
Ken Boatman: yeah - kinda funny (but not to him)
the_electrosushi: it sounds more SW than HW
Russell Brown: by Ken
Ken Boatman: see ya'll next week
the_electrosushi: bye
b m: sorry, of course, just the image of dogs eating gameboys!
b m: bye
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: By Ken
Ken Boatman has left the conference.
David Selonke: Bad Dog!
Russell Brown: Cubase works fine on it's own
b m: lol
b m: are you monitoring at the input to the desk stage or from cubase itself?
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hey, Guys I have to go to as I have an appointment with a customer about some magnetic signs.
b m: ok daniel, have a good week
David Selonke: ok
Russell Brown: the sound is meant to be routed back to the desk
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: I'll see you all next week
David Selonke: cya
b m: bye
Me: We'll play the best jingle on the podcats by the way
Russell Brown: by daniel
the_electrosushi: have a good week
Me: Good luck
Me:
b m: are you getting meter levels on the monitor output in cubase (i.e. the bus you are using for monitoring)
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: Hey Chris take a listen to them songs in my folder and let me know what you think.
Me: will do
DANIEL WORKMAN SR: See ya
DANIEL WORKMAN SR has left the conference.
Russell Brown: no nothing
Russell Brown: wait...
b m: are you using the 'monitor' button on channels in cubase?
Russell Brown: what d'you mean
Russell Brown: ?
Russell Brown: channel 17 & 18
b m: you are probably using a stereo bus in cubase to feed a pair of channels on the desk, correct?
Russell Brown: think so
Russell Brown: channel 17 & 18
Russell Brown: and a stereo out from cubase
b m: when you say monitoring are you talking about hearing the track that musicians are playing along to OR do you mean that they can not hear what they are playing
Russell Brown: they can't hear what they're playing and I can see or hear to set levels
Me: OK guys I have to split like a banana.
Russell Brown: bye Chris
b m: ok chris
b m: bye
Me: oh by the way http://twitter.com/audio
Me: follow me
Me:
David Selonke: bye
the_electrosushi: bye chris
_________________
It's all in the ears. - Learn the concepts not the software.
SAEOnLine is a way into the creative industries.
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Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:10 pm |
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